lol, you are blatantly not a fan from your last sentence.. Surface fan, but scratch beneath that surface and you want to see him beat !
Fair enough. I disagree, although I appreciate the acknowledgement of Salido's fatigue. Essay of all essays incoming; At no point in the discussion was I unaware that Salido continued to output a high number of punches. In fact, I noted it myself, before further observing Salido's fatigue-induced switch to the back foot, which handed Lomachenko (still quite fresh and strong, to his credit) both initiative and confidence as an attacker; Aside from which, numbers don't tell you much about the form or the strength of the punches. Salido's a fighter, he's going to dig down and move his hands in the championship rounds, weary or not. There's no accounting for the quality of the work, though. I could call it naive, but it's much more likely wishful to think that Loma would stick to a failing strategy for so many lost rounds, only to switch it on (coincidentally enough) around the time Salido began tiring and backing up. It's a way of mitigating a possible shortcoming in your man, ie. that he just might be susceptible to educated pressure and also less effective on the back foot. If he'd been comfortably winning most of those rounds with the lower output and in reverse gear, you'd have more of a case for suspecting a gameplanned conservatism throughout the early-mid part of the fight, but the rounds were almost all Salido type rounds from 2-9. Loma is a pretty cerebral guy, and he needed something to change around the middle of the fight - if he was able to clearly effect that change at the flick of a switch, he would have done so much sooner than 10-12. On top of that, his corner sent him into the 7th urging him to press the fight, assuring him that Salido was flagging. Doesn't sound like the gameplan was to be excessively conservative to me. So we can deduce that Salido was able to limit the extent to which Loma was able to follow his corner's instructions for at least three more rounds, especially since there's video of Salido methodically doing just that. As it turned out, Loma needed Siri to sag and cede ground before he could start turning the screw. That's pretty much objective fact, based on the action in the fight. Yes, Loma started slow in the fight. I'll get to that later in the post. No great surprise the fights would start out and evolve quite differently, Salido was a crafty trade pressure fighter and Russell Jr. wasn't. Salido was the bodypuncher in his fight with Lomachenko, Russell wasn't. Loma was evidently more mindful of Salido's skills and strength than he was of Russell's speed and athleticism. Nevertheless, when Russell found the back foot unprofitable and committed himself to backing Loma up behind a jab, Loma outputted less punches. Let's not just quote data here, let's crunch and analyse it. Russell backed Loma up for the first minute of the 3rd, accounting for the drop in Loma's numbers in that round. The 4th and 6th were rounds which Loma spent backing up. Low numbers. Russell backed Loma up for the first minute of the 7th, during which Loma threw around 10 of the 62 punches he was recorded as having thrown in that round. The 8th and 9th were rounds which Loma spent backing up. Low numbers. Russell backed Loma up for the first minute of the 10th, during which Loma threw around 12 of the 54 punches he was recorded as having thrown in that round. Russell backed Loma up for the first minute of the 11th, wherein Loma threw around 12 punches. Loma took the front foot for the middle portion of the round, throwing around 34 punches. The roles reversed again in the final minute, wherein Loma threw around 13 punches. Russell backed Loma up for the first 1:30 of the 12th, during which Loma threw a meagre 20 of the 76 punches he was recorded as having thrown in the round. I trust that you notice a pattern. Loma isn't as efficient a fighter on the back foot. Those periods in the fight were, not coincidentally, the periods which made it somewhat competitive (a 117-111, possibly 116-11 type of margin; not quite dominant from Loma, but definitely a shade more authoritative than a 'close but clear' winner). We know that Loma established clear technical superiority whenever he was holding center ring or backing Russell up. This would be a good time to point out (as it plays into the Salido fight) that Lomachenko doesn't have endless reserves. His engine was already pretty much built before turning pro - it's a good one, but he's no Tony Margarito. It's actually likely that fatigue on Loma's part accounted for a little of Russell's ability to back him up in those periods referred to above (for example, the 6th came after an intensely active 5th for Loma). I loathe CompuBox, but you had to go there, so let's bear in mind that Loma outputs power punches at a little below the average for his divisions. Salido, meanwhile, outputs power punches way above the average for his divisions. Loma gives the appearance of an Energizer Bunny against overmatched guys. Salido has shown the ability to keep throwing and throwing and throwing in fully fledged wars. Which brings me to my next point. I'm glad we ruled out whim, forgetfulness and happenstance. I'm going to venture that if stamina was a concern in Loma's mind, it was more a result of the things Salido was doing to offset him than designed conservatism, more attributable to the action of the fight itself than any advance gameplanning. Lomachenko felt and measured those hard body shots. I've no doubt that his thoughts turned to the later rounds every time Salido dug to his torso in the early-mid going. Perhaps Loma was privy to something you couldn't sense every time that happened, ie. that attempting to engage Siri when he was strong could just as possibly result in shipping significant sustained punishment as dishing it. Loma is somewhat crowd-pleasing in his fashion, but he's not really in the business of slugfests. Salido can do that kind of a fight. At least, he could do it with greater capacity the further back in time we go. Orlando Salido and Gary Russell Jr. are by far the best opponents Loma has faced, and that's why he had competitive fights with them (moreso with Salido, obviously). When the opposition is less capable of offsetting him, a fighter can appear to be able to go at a full pace all night. Can appear infallible. Can appear to be able to do as he pleases in a prize ring (see Mosley-Margarito vs. Mosley-Mayweather). Jason Sosa can't carry Siri's jockstrap. Levels. Lomachenko is human. One cannot expect him to unflinchingly hold center ring (where he's most effective) for the entire duration of a fight if he's facing stiff resistance. And much less so if that resistance is a quality pressure guy like Siri. Loma doesn't hit that discouragingly hard and, while no weakling, he isn't *that* physically strong. Men with equal or greater physical presence are going to be able to back him up. Of course, when it's Jose Ramirez backing you up, assuming you're a Vasyl Lomachenko, it's not a trying circumstance. He's there to play a part, give you rounds and be toyed with. The effects of his work are more negligible. Your numbers aren't going to suffer from Jose Ramirez' pressure because stylists (not styles) make fights. And Jose Ramirez can't carry Siri's jockstrap. Levels again.
Continuing... I understand why one would cite CompuBox stats only, because they lend themselves to a greatly simplified narrative or rationalization (one which may appear to absolve Loma of stylistic shortcomings). To introduce analysis of the action in the rounds you mentioned would muddy the story and greatly undermine your argument. Numbers are numbers, but the dynamics of a fight shed light on the numbers. So let's take a look. First round was a very cagey feeling out round from both men, much more feinting than punching. Lomachenko had probably done his homework better than you and realized that he wasn't the only one in there capable of using feints to draw leads for crafty counters. Salido himself was tentative. Well, imagine my shock. These guys have due respect for each other. From 2-6, Salido was on the front foot much of the time, manipulating distance well, alternately combining head, waist, foot and hand feints and weaving under while shovelling to the body, but always keeping Loma honest, frequently inhibiting his angle changes with varied methodology - either taking timely steps just out of range, stepping on Loma's lead foot with his own, turning with him and getting off downstairs, weaving under and alternately boring his Haglerian dome into Loma's chest while slugging to the body or bodying him off in close to make room for sneaky digs, or else tieing up while working in the clinch, with Loma often too occupied with protecting against body shots to move his hands, himself an initiator of numerous clinches, or using his angles to evacuate the area after or before a body shot would land, darting out of mid-range as Salido turned with him and stepped across to go again. Kellerman put it well when he remarked that Lomachenko had brought his bag of tricks, "But they just don't seem to bother Salido." Even though Loma's output picked up a little through the mid-late going, it wasn't until the last two sessions, as Salido's form sagged due to fatigue and he began to move conspicuously into reverse gear in the 11th, that he approximated the divisional average (or his current personal average) for punches thrown. Lomachenko was actively grappling and muscling a tired Salido out of center ring in the 12th, so it's not as if his newly found joy in the championship rounds was entirely a matter of Matrix angles. Much of it was scrappy industry on the part of a fresher man. When he hurt Salido, there was no Matrix angle - it was on an exchange of single punches as Salido advanced and threw a wearily lazy jab. Only a fool would deny Loma's increased success late on, but let's not pretend that Salido's fatigue had no part in it. It very much did. That doesn't invalidate the success, because Loma gets the credit for an incredible degree of fitness that allowed him to still be fresh enough to turn the screw at the end even after all the pounding his body took. I had Salido 7-5 or a draw at worst. He won the fight and employed a ton of skill to do it. And that wasn't even Siri in his pomp. Loma's lucky there aren't many like him around anymore, much less in their prime. It always amazes me when fans listen to a bunch of button-clickers instead of watching the fights. We can talk boxing without regurgitating unnuanced statistics and pretending that Orlando Salido doesn't know a lot more about fighting than Nicholas Walters. Loma was letting his hands go late on because he could. When he didn't, it was because he was restricted by his opponent. I could sit here and state that GRJ would've beaten Loma if he'd only backed him up all night, and that might even be true. But he couldn't, because there's no video game switch. I lost count of the amount of folk who swore blind that Adrien Broner could be an ATG if he'd only let them hands go. No video game switch, fellas. "Simply" isn't a valid argument, because high level boxing matches are complex. Some of us are good at using our eyes and ears at the same time. My eyes weren't lying to me about Salido's decline in form and physical strength in the later rounds or his switch into reverse gear in the 11th. He was effectively nudged to the ground by Loma in the 10th, and Loma is not the man to nudge a bull like Siri to the ground in ordinary circumstances. But I appreciate the sporting tone you're applying to the exchange of views. At least one other poster of a Lomachenkian predisposition had made me wonder whether I was communicating with a teenage female so far this week. Kudos.
Clearly some of us have an abundance of time on our hands. Unfortunately, I have neither the time or inclination to offer as detailed a rebuttal. Nonetheless, I'll offer a few brief counterpoints. I am afraid you have it very much backward with respect to statistical data on punch output. The raw data did not inform my theory on Lomachenko's rather economical pacing/punch output in the opening rounds of the Salido fight, rather it quite directly confirmed that theory. Indeed, I consulted the raw data because I watched the fight and my eyes and ears informed me that the young Ukrainian was pacing himself in an overly conservative manner. That the raw data affirmed as much should come as no surprise; raw data has a funny way of supporting accurate observation. Astoundingly, it amazes me when fans (many of whom write off Loma's win over Rigo as a result of an in-fight weight advantage but make no corresponding allowance in the Salido bout) blithely dismiss the frequent and often very blatant low blows as "veteran tactics" or "professional boxing." One suspects that these folks would have an entirely different view if they were on the receiving end. Had Salido been quite justifiably docked a point for low blows, the fight would be have scored a draw. Recall the scores were 116-112, 115-113 Salido; 115-113 Loma. Context is indeed important if subjective. For example, has it occurred to you that Loma's increased output in rounds 10-12 greatly assisted in forcing Salido onto his back foot?? Additionally, there was no shortage of movement/footwork on Loma's part early in the fight. Yet I would submit that it was ineffective movement when it needn't have been. For example, do you dispute that Loma could have pivoted more to create punching angles to the side of Salido when the latter bulldozed his way in? Those type of movements, not blindly tying someone up, have been staples of the Ukrainian dynamo's offensive repertoire. Similarly, Loma did not circle as often to his right as I would have liked. Let's not behave as if either movement/maneuver is foreign to the kid's arsenal or reminiscent of a video game. All in all, however, I have enjoyed the banter and do not necessarily disagree with all of your analysis/interpretations. Don't be so smug or high-handed, however. You come off, as we would say here in the States, like a douche sometimes and that tends to undermine some rather thoughtful (even if one disagrees, and I do with some of it) arguments.
So you consider a split decision (116-112, 115-113 Salido; 115-113 Loma) in which one fighter had a notable in-fight weight advantage and was guilty of repeated and often blatant low blows a decisive victory? Geezus. That has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on this site. Surely you realize that if Salido had been penalized a point for his incessant fouling, an action that would have been entirely justified in light of his conduct, the fight would have been ruled a draw, right??
It shouldn't have been a split decision. Loma lost and got roughed up. Tell your ****en excuses to someone who cares. And then Loma didn't rematch the man. Jesus H. Christ the ex ****en excuses lmao.
You're right. It should have been a draw. Yes, Loma got so roughed up he swept the championship rounds and nearly dropped Salido in the 12th. Whether you "care" or not is immaterial to me. What you call "excuses," others quite correctly call logic. You may wish to try it sometime. I'm not holding my breath, however.
It wasn't a draw. And who cares what he swept, he lost. And they are excuses. He didn't even have to fight Salido who came in overweight. They thought that they could beat him and didn't expect Salido to raise his game. Excuse maker. Stop crying. And that isn't logic, that's your crying, cry baby.