Was Carlos Monzon ever p4p number 1?

Besides, there's no rule that the fighter who wins that year can't lose in the same year? What's one loss against three wins?

 

I don't give excuses Richard.

 

Ali, Duran, and Monzon were definitely the best of the decade; they could soundly be ordered any way you want.

Although I would rank Ali the best of the decade, he comes close. He was not as consistently good as Duran and Monzon were in 70s, and did not reign in his division for 7 years like Duran and Monzon were.

 

I didn't say Ali was the fighter of the year either.

Pathetic? Ali cruised thru much of his work. Who was he lucky to beat? Who run him close? He getting back on track well and truly and his 70's best was not that far away.

Foster's win over Rondon was a very good one but he was heavily favored over the other two. Finny actually made him work quite hard for it.

Regardless Ali had him up and down like a yoyo and that's certainly not winning you fighter of the year regardless of what division you are in. Perhaps if he fought another light heavy contender instead of Ali he would have taken the box of chocolates but he certainly didn't with the loss to Ali.

 

I wasn't saying it was a hard year for Ali, I just thought all of his wins were unimpressive. I would not vote the award for Ali, and doing so I think would greatly reflect the dull situation in 1972. So who do you think should have won Fighter of the Year? Monzon? Olivares? Duran?

 

Duran had one loss in the entire decade. He avenged it emphatically not once but twice, once with his title on the line and the second time in a unification. His list of wins is long with solid quality such as Marcel, Buchanan, De Jesus x 2 and Palomino as well as a fine list of others.

Ali certainly had bigger highs with the likes of Foreman and Frazier but he also lost to Frazier, Norton and Leon Spinks. He also struggled in other matches with Ken and looked lethargic in various bouts. You yourself labelled his form "pathetic" (which i entirely disagree with) in 1972 and rest assured he looked far worse in the later 70's at times.

So Ali had by far the bigger downs as well. Having said that i have little problem with anyone picking Ali. The win over Foreman is one of the greatest in history.

 

Let's review Ali's fights in 1972 then, shall we?
Mac Foster-boring, unimpressive decision over a fighter who was not close to Ali's level of competition
George Chuvalo II-I thought Ali got a very great start in this fight, showing plenty of speed and mobility, and looked great for the first half of the bout, but slowed in the latter half, which is understandable vs. Chuvalo, but still not very great
Alvin Lewis-Ali's most impressive showing of the year actually, but Lewis was an insignificant fighter
Jerry Quarry II-Ali looked pretty sharp in this bout, and very fast and mobile, but I thought the stoppage in round 7 left an unsatisfying ending for Ali. Probably Ali's best showing of the year
Floyd Patterson II-This was a pretty even fight, and Ali was too passive. He closed Patterson's eye, but did not do much other than that. In fact, Patterson won most of their exchanges.
Bob Foster-This was a decent showing; Ali took some stiff jabs from Foster well and stopped an ATG very decisively. But Ali was unable to nail Foster in the first 3 rounds, and looked lethargic at times. He also seemed to have trouble putting Foster away, who looked bad off.

Ali was certainly an ATG, and in my opinion he achieved much of his peak from '74 to '75 like you alluded to, but I thought the from the time after he lost to Frazier '71 to the time before their rematch, Ali was just making it. He was beating a lot of good names, and was very active, but if I made a list of Ali's greatest wins, the only one from the '71 to '73 period I would include is Norton II. Ali just was unimpressive after the loss to Frazier, and that made his wins over Norton, Frazier, and Foreman (73-74) all the more impressive.

 

Foster was rated the 6th best heavyweight in the world in a quite decent era. He was only ever stopped by Quarry. Some people scored this a shutout for Ali. Ali was 226 which is telling. Still got the job done in a canter against a high ranked contender.

Tough guy still on the fringe on the way out. Some scored it a shutout. Decent nights work.

Lewis wasn't that much true. He was Ali's ex sparring partner. Quarry and Finnegan weren't exactly world beaters either when one digs into it. It was a weak 175 era underneath the top.

Quarry was rated right behind Frazier and Ali at #3. Ali dominated and there was nothing unsatisfying for Ali.

Patterson may have even bumped back into the top 5 by the time this took place. Patterson hadn't been stopped for 7 years, since Ali 1 actually.

I'll let you in on a very little known secret - Ali was known for cruising and clowning in a lot of fights. He seldom went all out.

Ali was leading on two out of the three cards. AP had it 5-2 for Ali so he must have been doing something. You seem to be expecting incredible stuff from Ali as you get disappointed in him rather easily. Patterson was a quality fighter even late career and had a big heart.

How many rounds did you give Bob? Do you think Ali went all out? He treated it like a glorified sparring session and held back heaps pulling punches etc. It's blatantly obvious and it is hard not to feel sorry for Bob.

On top of this Ali (despite the great oxygen tank joke) was affected by the altitude (hence tiring a bit and looking a tad lethargic) where as Foster was better equipped.

While Ali would never again be the GOAT heavyweight talent he was prior to exile he was beating a host of top 10 fighters and often quite easily. He was also half hearted at times but that was late model Ali. When he needed to put in against Frazier and Foreman he sure did.

Well how long is this list you are talking about?

You do realize he was never again as good as he was pre-exile right? He still managed to get past Frazier twice and produce one of the greatest wins in history over Foreman.

 

Short answer is I don't know but he must have been in contention, particularly around 1974. That was a very competitive year though - he fought twice and his win over Jose Napoles was a huge one. But Ali beat Joe Frazier and then George Foreman. Duran fought 8 times that year and beat Esteban DeJesus. That's probably your p4p top 3 that year (and also for the entire decade).

 

Oh yes he did.

He outclassed the other top contender and beat something like four more ranked fighters plus the dominant LHW champion, without any controversy. That single year beats some title reigns.

Not saying he was the top fighter that year, but it certainly was a good one.

 

I don't agree with you about anything you said except that I take that back, Ali did have worse evenings than 72. '71 (with the exception of Frazier) was probably Ali at his worst). Ali did not look good in '73; Bugner I, Norton I, and Lubbers were all horrible performances. And of course, Ali did look very bad against Young and Evangelista, and even Shavers (physical condition). I just believe that the '71 to '73 period was just a time when Ali was trying to survive and stay in the rankings due to activity. I attribute most of his performances to the punishment absorbed against Frazier. Ali reentered his peak when he defeated Norton imo.

 

I do not have anything against Ali for his performances that year. I think they were as good as good be expected after losing to Frazier. Btw, you didn't share a secret. I've watched Ali a lot and know he was a cruiser and a clown every now and then. Cooper I and Lyle both being good examples of that. I would agree that the Quarry rematch was Ali's best win of the year, but it was not an ATG performance coming from an ATG. I gave Bob Foster one round, I think. I don't agree with what you say about Ali's peak either. I think Ali peaked in '74-'75. And I know that's a big division for people. Some thought he peaked in the 60s, others the 70s. I think both, but I think he peaked in '74-'75. You could check out the FIGHT CITY's list of Ali's best performances:

https://www.thefightcity.com/top-12...azier-ken-norton-sonny-liston-george-foreman/

I mostly like this list, but would change it. I could order it properly later, but I think these were Ali's best performances; some of them are a bit unorthodox:

both Liston fights
Patterson 1
Chuvalo 1
Williams
Terrell
Folley
Bonavena
Norton 2
Frazier 2
Foreman
Lyle
Frazier 3
Shavers

 

In general I think Ali had a good 71-73. He outclassed Quarry, dominated and stopped Ellis, Mathis and Lewis, pitched a shoutout against MacFoster, comfortably beat Chuvalo and Bugner, and stopped Floyd and Foster, albeit with a bit of trouble. The blotch was his struggles with Norton.

Lubber was a nothing fight in which Ali won every round despite not really showing up. It was a glorified exhibition really, but in a year when you've already met Bugner, Norton x 2 and are preparing to face Frazier you can take a fight like that without having to be ashamed of it.

I could only wish top contenders today had years like Ali had 71-73. He beat everyone that matter except Frazier and Foreman, who he'd beat the following year.

76-78 was a different thing, though, where he struggled against every half decent opponent he faced and denied them well earned rematches in order to face the likes of Evangelista and Spinks instead.

With that said, I won't derail the thread with this offroad anymore.

 

I just cannot understand what you see in some of those wins. His win over Ellis was an awful night. Ali shows up in bad shape for the first time in his career, he's slower than he's ever been, his movement is not as good as it was, and his timing is poor. Again, this is what I would expect after you just fought Frazier. I don't think Ellis was in very good condition either though, after losing to Frazier and having a tough fight with Chuvalo.