Was Hagler s loss To Leonard More About Marvin Declining,Or Ray's Tactics?

There has to be a balance. I was watching an old fight the other day. It's pissing me off I can't remember who. Anyway his corner was hollering at him instead of giving him instructions. I said to myself this isn't helpful at all.

 

In my experience, it's really the case most of the times.

 

You're on a very slippery slope. You're talking about Ray not being "a real man" whilst Duran quit while completely unhurt. But hey, Ray got the bigger ring and gloves.

 

His pride was hurt.

 

And to make it worse, talk of real men whilst "hating" bonafides like Ray and Ali, whilst championing Tyson make for some difficult logical discussions. Genuinely, any champion that makes it to ATG status deserves to be ranked as a real man. You know how highly I think of Duran - you could argue that a real man wouldn't let himself get fat once he reached the top of the mountain.

I find it strange the dislike for outboxing knowing that WB rates SRR, who both Ali and SRL model large aspects of their style on.

If you're faster of hand and have great feet, which credible trainer is instructing you to minimise your advantages?

 

Hagler was more of an outboxer most of his fights.

If he got a smaller ring and gloves for the Leonard fight, the logical conclusion would be that @White Bomber would ‘hate’ Hagler for his ‘shenanigans’ lol.

And if you don’t think Ray Leonard was willing to trade WB, you haven’t watched him quite frankly.

Look at his fights with Hearns (both of them), Benitez, Duran I, Kalule … I could go on and on.

 

I don't find the Ray waited for Roberto to get fat argument compelling. Ray would have fought him again the next month.

 

The thing I loved about Ray's first fight with Tommy is he didn't punch him to start the thirteenth round barrage that ended him. He literally pushed the bigger man into the ropes.

 

Ray went with his wife to Hawaii immediately after the Montreal fight.

He was not sure if he wanted to fight again.

About a week or two after the fight, he was running on the beach and it hit him that he did want to continue his career. He got back to his room and called his attorney, Mike Trainer, and told him to call Duran’s team and make the fight — whatever the money, whatever the terms, make it.

By all accounts, that call to Duran’s camp to open negotiations happened right away. So if Roberto chose to party rather than train, that’s on him.

The rematch took place 5 months after the first fight. This is actually the longest layoff in Duran’s career to that point. Much like with Mike Tyson, the key with Duran was keeping him active so he had LESS time to drink and eat himself out of contention. If they push the fight back, Duran probably only gets in worse shape because he’d have just kept partying.

Also, in those days to not defend within six or so months without an injury was risking getting stripped. They fought late November … if Roberto pulled out and didn’t fight until February or March against some lesser contender, he probably waddles into the ring out of shape and loses for little money to a nobody.

Leonard’s terms were ‘take the fight or I will go fight Pipino Cuevas and he can make the big money.’ Ray wasn’t nor should he have been required to wait until Duran awoke from his booze-and-food binge to take the next steps in his (Leonard’s) career.

 

I guess letting yourself go after the biggest win of your career, not being ready for the rematch and quitting is what being a real man is all about, lol.

 

Clancy commentated on how little urgency there was in Hagler's corner.

 

Hagler fighting orthodox the first 4 rounds was beyond stupid, but then again Hagler wasn't the brightest bulb. Leonard was a much smarter fighter whereas Hagler was more of a skilled brute, who had lost some steam since the Hearns and Mugabi fights not to mention the mental drain Duran had put on him. He agreed to Leonard's terms and then fought a very stupid fight he can only blame himself.

 

Those first 4 rounds cost Hagler the fight--I don't think there's any question at this point. If Ali's "rope a dope" was the pinnacle example of tactical brilliance Hagler fighting orthodox in rounds 1-4 against Leonard was the most glaring example of a terrible strategic blunder!

 

Sure, Rays elite hand speed would always provide for it’s own measure of advantageous difference but Hagler still appeared slower of hand in his own right and same goes for his footwork which also appeared plodding.

Hearns of course has already been mentioned as another laser fast fighter who Marv engaged.

 

Thanks for your reply and I’m sure you know that I was being light hearted in my post. I don’t necessarily agree with all that but you laid out where you, personally, are coming from which is, of course, fine.