Was Liston a "dirty" fighter?

Bert Sugar did say this I've seen it on a documentary the UK did of boxing.

He said Machen, Williams, and Ali complained of being blinded. Is that just a rather strange coincidence? Guy was linked to the mob. I don't have much of a doubt that he didn't cheat, and in one of the worst ways too.

Just another thing Liston gets a pass on because he's so loved, frankly.

 

When exactly did Liston cheat against Williams? In the 2 rounds that it took to dispose of him?

The likes of Machen were also linked to the mob which is why D'Amato refused to have Patterson face him for the title. Let's face it, nearly all of the fighters back then were.

 

I'm not sure when he cheated. This is Bert Sugar's account, and you provided is with Machen saying his eyes hurt.

We have the film of the Ali fight being blinded and in pain. No way was that a corner mistake. So how was Liston not a cheat? Or at least his corner-men? Let's face it he was.

 

Don't compare me to Mendoza who looks at 1-2 judges on 2 scorecards of Louis fight to prove MOB-related activity.

Liston was connected in a known way. But that's not the point. The point is there is a collective amount of bad things Liston had going for him.

Liston blinded Ali. Who does this not make him dirty or a cheat?

Understand that I know this will be nearly impossible to answer seeing as you love Liston and ridiculously rate him in the top 3 as a HW.

 

Angelo Dundee said it was probably accidental.

Bert Sugar, far from a reliable source, and Eddie Machen saying it 5 years after their actual fight is not solid enough proof of Liston being a terrible cheat.

Margarito attempted to cheat against Mosley and since then everyone has come out saying that Margarito cheated against them. This doesn't necessarily make it true. Also in Liston's case, his opponents other than Ali were not visibly blinded. Folley and Williams were simply overwhelmed and knocked out. It's not like he was losing until his opponents suddenly couldn't see. In Margarito's case you could point out to him usually getting the worst of it until his bludgeoning blows got to his opponents.

 

There was no accident. Dundee at the time was still experienced in the fight-game. His eyes were really burning and Dundee put his finger in his eyes and felt how bad it was. Fighters have had corner-men make errors that blinded or blurred their fighters vision, but has their ever been a case where a fighter was blinded and had burning eyes? Liston seemed to turn his motor on as if he knew it was his big chance when this seemed to happen too.

I don't think Folley was blinded. I believe Burt says it was in the Williams and Machen fights. I never brought Folley in this. Still possible. Maybe he was scarred of Liston and his connections? Who knows...

It's mostly burning in the eyes that blinds you. Maybe Machen had burning eyes but could still see a bit. Ali could see a tad bit but it was clear he was in pain.

Because we don't know the source of the corner-men that cheated for Liston it never happened? Why anyone admit to such a thing. Are you implying Ali was blinded and in pain from a mistake his corner made? Dundee was completely unaware of it till Ali started hollering. Clearly Liston wrongful and shameful act. Ali wanted to cut his gloves to expose him as a cheat!

Yes, his purse is withheld for a fix. The guy and the people around him don't have such high credibility. This isn't the court of law. If it was we wouldn't have enough to convict Liston of anything. You might not have enough to convinct Margarito either. Do you believe Liston and his corner put stuff on his gloves to blind Ali? Or that Ali's corner made a mistake that nobody could recognize, nor nobody can attest to? Ali had no cut, and nothing that could've led to something getting in his eyes.

 

I need to hear this because I never heard this story.

Dundee said and that Ali wanted to expose Liston. Dundee never seemed to imply a mistake in the corner. Why hasn't this "myth" died out then.

With both, it's not unreasonable to believe. Their credibility has been tested.

 

Eddie Machen's accusations came after the Clay-Liston fight so they seem a bit unreliable.
The old "Oh yeah, he did that to me too!" type excuse.

Clay was the first to make the allegation, I think.
But how would he know if it was deliberate or where the stinging substance came from ?

There's a story going around that Joe Pollino, Liston's cornerman, confessed to this. But I cant find any source where they was claimed, or whether Pollino was alive when the story broke. Apparently long-time Liston camp journalist Joe McKinney relayed the story.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cgz25SHUA8[/ame]

 

Was Marciano blinded by Walcott? He was blinded so it must have been deliberate.