Clay was a phenomenal athlete and coming into his peak but I thought his performance was somewhat uneven. He was inexperienced though.
I don't believe the blinding incident, it was probably just accidental. There are RUMOURS that someone said something about it being deliberate, but there are all sorts of rumours around this fight. I don't believe many of them. All I see is a fighter putting in a lame performance and then quitting. People say they see Liston trying hard, but I don't see a performance that is conclusively genuine effort (nor is it conclusively a tank job). The quitting makes me highly suspicious, and I don't trust the promoters and managers involved in this. After these two suspect fights with Liston, Clay brought life back to boxing.
'IF' Sonny Liston was looking to get out of the fighting game, this could have been possibly the best opportunity. A solid win against Cassius Clay would have put Sonny in an inevitable decision of fighting Eddie Machen or maybe Ernie Terrell, for late-64'. Just who would have bought those fights? A loss to Clay, gets a guaranteed rematch, with more money to be made. 'Golden Parachute' The only other fighter out there who was considered a 'box office' guarantee was Floyd Patterson.
Tripper, January 1963, Jack Nilon had the 1963 fight schedule scenario set; A proposed re-match with Floyd Patterson for March 1963, in Baltimore, Maryland. At the new Civic Center (16,000 seat capacity). If that bout fell through, Harold Johnson (World Light Heavyweight Champion) would be the back-up. Johnson was riding a big winning streak, and had defeated both Eddie Machen and Doug Jones, as well as Marty Marshall (the only pro-boxer to beat Liston). A proposed future bout with Ingemar Johannson was pre-set for Philadelphia, PA, in June 63', or for early-Fall. August 63', New York Times reported a $2,000,000 offer was on the table for Johannson. Cassius Clay was mentioned as a possible November 63' bout. Nilon stated, Those fights should have put a cap on Sonny Liston's active boxing career. 1964 would be more or less, a world-wide tour with a boxing exhibition run, in each country visited. Appearance fee's would be set (depending on the locale) from $7500 to $15,000, plus expenses and hospitalities. Up to that point, Sonny Liston had only received approximately $75,000 of the $282,000 he was owed from the Patterson fight in Septermber 62'.
farcical - louis commentating said the opening round was the most exciting he had seen in many years but maybe the brown bomber was in on the fix aswell LOL.
Interestingly, Louis had been among one of the first to set up the Liston-Clay fight. It was reported in the papers in late '62 or early '63 I think that Louis was touting the idea of the fight and was acting as a promoter on the west coast. Of course, Louis was probably being exploited by mobsters again and was just a front for the mob.
Yeah,,,,,,,Joe did like to dabble in 'smack',,,,,or 'horse'. ICP took care of Joe, at the order of Sonny. I think Joe's wife was also given a job as a representative in the Liston camp. An easy way for Joe to make $10,000, plus expenses and hospitalties. Probably went right back to Vegas, and blew it on the 21/Black-Jack tables. Joe was a little slow in reacting to what was going on. Like the way announcer Steve Ellis yelled at Joe, when the fight was over. 'Get in there Joe, get up there'
The only clue could be, Jack Nilon hedged his bet with a lock on a return-match, and future rights to Cassius Clay's fights. It was the smart play, just in case Sonny lost or decided to pull something that he was unaware of. Sonny wasn't the sharpest in sparring at the Community Center in Surfside.
Agreed, especially as clay chin at the time i believe must have had some question marks over it? Now we know that ali had a quality chin today but at the time this was him moving up in serious class having been knocked down previously by Banks and Cooper. For me the 1st fight was on the level, the 2nd not
The only concrete evidence of anything weird in the the second fight fiasco I can see, is that Sonny lunged in with those long punches, which did leave himself open slightly. The 'anchor' punch did land and maybe Sonny was falling forward after missing the long slow jab. Sometimes, while watching the fight over and over, you get to think maybe he was falling forward as Ali threw the short downward 'baby right'. His force of going forward and possible stumble, along with the punch may have made him go down. While on the mat, maybe he was so damn embarrassed that he didn't want to get up. Probably couldn't believe he was on the canvas.
clay knew liston's game plan i.e. to try and ko him quick -he didn't let sonny get set to throw his bombs - when he did throw them he was over-reaching and clay made him look bad by controlling distance and changing angles with his footwork. very class performance by clay if you look at the skills. sonny couldn't handle his speed and movement style - he would ko anyone who just stood there in front of him like patterson did - clay didn't do that and if he did he was just outta punching range so liston over-reached and missed a lot to try and catch him. a fix hell no!
SPORTS ILLUSTRATED published a frame-by-frame analysis of the film in its June 7, 1965, issue, concluding that Liston was, in fact, knocked out. In the first panel of a four-shot sequence, Ali is seen pulling back to avoid a Liston jab; in the second, he is planting his weight on his left foot, while throwing a short right hand over Liston's left hand; in the third, the punch is just about to land; in the fourth, Sonny's head is snapped sideways the force of the blow, which actually lifts Liston's left foot -- the one his weight was on -- off the canvas, as can be seen by the shadow under Liston's foot.
In the second fight the punch landed for sure. It's debatable whether or not it was sufficient to cause the knockdown. Maybe it was. But Ali's instant reaction belied his own immediate feelings on the matter, he yelled and gestured in disgust and anger that Sonny had gone down. He berated Sonny and demanded he get up. This was followed by a very strange and unconvincing act from Sonny where he gets to one knee then topples over, it looks way too slow and deliberate, it looks as if Sonny is pretending.