Was Ray Mercer As Good As Any Of The 80 s Alphabet Boy's?

Agreed. Tubbs was a frustrating oddity. A big man who had fast feet and hands, had a good jab, good upper-body movement and could throw nice combinations. But he carried limited power and this lack of deterrent was a disadvantage against opponents who wanted to close the distance on him.

That said, I think his feet were fast enough to cause Ray issues. And, if and when Mercer did get in close, Tubbs' inside game was not that bad at all - good enough to limit any damage before scooting off out of range again, which Tubbs was apt to do.

Mercer's best option is likely a body attack, like Witherspoon perpetrated against Tubbs, if he can sustain the same with any kind of consistency over the course.

I rarely feel comfortable betting against Hercules (unless he's up against an ATG shoo-in). In this case, however, I see Mercer being a bit too much of a mountain for him to climb. How much of a dent could Weaver put in Mercer? At the same time, how would he cope with the heavy hands of Mercer?
It's not an unwinnable fight for Weaver, though - and, he could surprise. I just think he's up against it here.

 

Well, what was the best stoppage Ray produced with those heavy hands? Morrison? Damiani? I think his power's considerably overrated. Certainly a respectable enough.

Like many, I have an immense fondness for Mike, a really good guy all around, and in solid health with sound mind today. (He had a reputation as hittable, but taking up boxing after the brain's physically mature does tend to preserve neurological health.) Never a personality, he actually seemed shy and was certainly quiet, not someone to draw attention to himself.

Unlike Mercer, he not only made the absolute most of his abilities and potential, many believe he actually "surpassed' it. (He was also a concert level pianist while WBA Champion, and played the theme from Chariots of Fire for the news crew profiling him in connection with his potential for a musical career. Also a Vietnam combat veteran with the USMC, although like most land combat veterans, he doesn't talk about that. The only reason we even know about his military service is because that's where he was drafted into a sport he previously didn't like. Mac Foster, Ken Norton and Leon Spinks were other noted 1970's heavyweights who started boxing in the USMC. )

Don't think Weaver would bother to try putting any kind of "dent" in Mercer. From LeDoux in 1979 to Derrick Ryals in 1996, he showed he was absolutely capable of boxing for the decision, something I never really saw Ray apparently attempt by intention.

If you haven't taken a look at the rarely viewed Weaver-Cooper, it was Bert who obviously attempted the knockout, while Mike was very clearly boxing for a distance win, despite the punch being the last to go. Weaver's timing and reflexes definitely were no longer there, but the conditioning was intact, and naturally the far greater experience, as he jabbed, ducked and dodged punches, atypically moving to gain the early lead.

Guy was smart and resilient. He feigned Carl Williams into that deadly hook off the ropes and repeatedly came off the deck to win throughout his career. Did it to Mercado in 1978 and Mike Gans in 1992. He also ridiculously responded to first round stoppages against Dokes and Bonecrusher to push each to the limit in rematches. (Think he wasn't deliberately baiting the Truth? Look at how he hold his left up against his head when hurt against Holmes, Coetzee, in Dokes I and Bonecrusher I, and then how he has it down, locked and loaded while posting his head behind his right shoulder right before he pulls the trigger. I instantly saw what was about happen, and in that split instant was in disbelief that the victim of Joey Curtis was risking that, of all people, but referee Tony Perez also saw what Weaver was doing, and was positioned perfectly to see Mike's trap set and sprung. In Weaver's next outing, after he was legitimately hurt in the opening round, Bonecrusher moved in with caution to finish it.)

Thrice, Cooper had him in very serious trouble. Each time, he got out of it, yet clinching was no more a part of his repertoire than it was for Frazier.

Of course you and I are only speculating, but Ray's best stoppages were by a lucky punch on Damiani, and when chinny amateur knockout victim Morrison (who had never gone more than a six round limit, and hadn't yet stopped anybody beyond early in round four just six bouts into his career) suddenly gassed to a guy with two recent 12 round decision wins after greenly expending himself early with his entire arsenal.

Yeah, in this case, I'm betting against Mercer, as I also bet against a stoppage. This one's going to the final bell. Between the two, Weaver has the better decision wins. Obviously, his Championship Distance UD over an undefeated Tillis (with Angelo Dundee) surpasses any decision Mercer had, and he had his match on the road in SA against Coetzee won before round 13. (Gerrie was behind 117-113, 116-114 and 116-115, having expended himself in round eight trying to finish Mike, who then weakened him with body shots to the point Coetzee had no chance to rally, although the end was actually from Mike's second consecutive one punch knockout.)

Should be mentioned that John Tate could slug as well as box. He blew out Bobick in one round by design, something the slow starting Norton was not expecting to do. Ken often had to get off the deck early until after Garcia I, and only ever had one other opening round stoppage in his entire career (at Ken's absolute 1975 peak, over 10-21-2 Rico Brooks, on a nine bout losing and 12 bout winless streak).

Big John also handed Mercado his first career defeat, wiping out Bernardo in less than two rounds. Mercado later got up from a Shavers bomb to stop Earnie. (Bernardo fully legitimized Leon Spinks as a legitimate world class HW with stoppage power in a match were the big powerful Columbian nonetheless never went down.) Tate also handed Knoetze his first stoppage defeat. (Coetzee really tried to take out his despised domestic rival, but while Gerrie did deck Kallie, he couldn't produce a stoppage. Coetzee was outspokenly against Apartheid and openly idolized Ali, while Knoetze personified Apartheid, shooting a fleeing black kid in the legs as a cop.)

Weaver took 14 rounds of shots from Tate in a situation where John was under some pressure in Knoxville to do better than Holmes had. And let's not forget that Mike got up from the biggest single bomb of Larry's title reign to answer the bell for the next round. Mercer never had a stoppage like Holmes-Weaver I. (The other best stoppage of Larry's title run? Snipes may have put Holmes on the deck, but as with the Shavers KD of Larry, that was Renaldo's only moment in their 11 rounds. Overlooked by that KD is the fact nobody else stopped Mr. Snipes until the end of his career. No, Ray Mercer does not stop Renaldo Snipes, not when peak Witherspoon, peak Coetzee, peak Greg Page.)


For me, Mercer's power is overrated on the basis of the brutal nature of his abrupt stoppage of Morrison, but that was hardly what Bentt later did to Tommy. Ray hit Holmes about a dozen times with the same sort of shots that took out the Duke which Larry absorbed without any difficulty, before he mockingly turned to the corner camera in the middle of it and loudly shouted, "I'm not Tommy Morrison!" If Mercer was anything like Cooney, Weaver or Shavers, you can bet Holmes wouldn't have mocked and clowned him like that. (In fact, I do not recall Larry EVER clowning or taunting ANYBODY ELSE the way he taunted Ray.)

Really, it was Ray's absurd ability to absorb it to both the body and head which caused the inexperienced Morrison to first punch himself out before Mercer produced that deadly assault.

Morrison-Mercer II is taken by Tommy via clear UD. Morrison would not repeat the same mistake of expending himself like that once he legitimately established himself over a longer distance against Hipp. Tommy would prove he had both the ability to learn and heart, getting up against both Carl Williams and Razor Ruddock to win via stoppage, while Ray didn't learn to box after lucking out against Damiani. (Also, Tommy was much faster than Mercer, fast enough to box for the decision. Round nine was the latest round either of them would ever produce a stoppage in, but Morrison-Hipp was far more impressive than Mercer-Damiani. The Boss could be a rugged SOB. For my money, Hipp was Smokin' Bert's best stoppage win, and it got Cooper to his title shot. I'll always be pissed at Bert though for his "My head is buzzing" caught by ringside microphone two round French Exit validating old Foreman's comeback.)

Can't see it. Mike didn't gas, could get up to win (as he did with Mercado and Gans), and Mercer wasn't the guy to catch him cold. Ray was never on the same level as 52 y/o Holmes (you thought I was going to bring up the 29 or 42 y/o Assassin?), peak Dokes (again, referee admitted very premature stoppage - previously, Joey Curtis had sometimes been criticized for letting bout continue too long), peak Bonecrusher or Pinklon's absolute career peak performance.

 

Good well thought out post--do not see too many of those anymore.

As it pertains to this fight......think about this. What does Mercer do > Weaver lands one of those great left hooks to the breadbasket?

I think it slows a slow footwork guy down a ton. He'd rather get hit on the chin than take that bodyshot. So I see a very pedestrian effort after eating that shot----Weaver and Cooney are the only good body punchers the last 40 years. Ali changed the game & we don't even get a guy like Chuvalo in recent decades. But it is sure talked about as if it is a big part of the strategy.

 

Note: I have not used the 'Reply' option due to the word count but reference your post in the link below:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...0-s-alphabet-boys.730522/page-3#post-23195591

This is a darn fine post, @Anubis . You've highlighted some essential aspects of Weaver that speak to his strengths, and you'll get no argument from me - I have a lot of regard for Weaver. He had the better career with some high-end performances that, in the main, yielded better results.


In case you thought I was hinting at Mercer winning this speculative bout by way of stoppage, I wasn't. A 'heavy-handed' fighter need not be a Knockout Artist in my book. "Respectable" power would be about right - enough to keep an opponent mindful and honest.

And, while some might overrate his stoppage of Morrison, it was a statement of Mercer's ability to exploit opportunities when they arose. This showed me that a relatively green Mercer was both able to pursue a strategy as well as be instinctive. I say 'pursue a strategy' because Mercer's team had in mind to have Morrison blow his stack early. Then Mercer needed to deliver - and he did.

For sure, Mercer's true strength lay in his toughness and persistence over a grueling contest rather than one-punch KO power. However, I think you're selling him short when you assert: "Mercer didn't learn to box after Damiani," which is a tad reductive, in my opinion.

The bout against Damiani highlighted Mercer's raw persistence and desire to keep going and turn the tide if at all possible, a trait that stayed with him, albeit sometimes latently, and served him in subsequent bouts. While Mercer didn't possess elite finesse, his performances against top-tier opponents like Holyfield, Lewis, and Witherspoon showed marked improvements in his jab, timing, and ability to consistently pressure his opponents.

Cooper is a tricky benchmark fight for Weaver, in my view (not least because Weaver was surely in his 40s by then?). Mercer defeated Cooper over 12 rounds years earlier when he was still a viable contender, albeit inconsistent in his form. This bout occurred when Mercer was still a relatively inexperienced slugger, with an under-developed jab and a limited inside game, which he would develop and demonstrate more effectively in later bouts. Weaver's win over Cooper was a solid performance, but the conditions and timing of these bouts are important distinctions when serving as a yardstick.


Regarding John Tate - despite being known at the time for his imposing physique and boxing prowess, he effectively utilized sustained pressure to dominate opponents. His victory over Kallie Knoetze in '79 exemplified this approach, in which he wisely started with some hesitancy, letting Knoetze go for broke for a few rounds. By round 4, Tate began to gradually turn up the heat and take control, looking much better as he came forward, towards the TKO.

Similarly, but pretty much from the outset, Tate applied pressure on Weaver and was bagging rounds as a result. Weaver demonstrated remarkable resilience and endurance, absorbing significant punishment and continuing to compete to deliver the late KO. But I'm banking on Mercer bringing more pressure than did Tate, and though Weaver's resilience is noteworthy, Mercer's proven durability suggests he would be unlikely to succumb to a knockout in response from Weaver, as did Tate. The bout would likely be a contest of endurance and strategy rather than one decided by a stoppage.

Here, and despite not reading as much into the Weaver/Cooper bout as you do, your point about Weaver's ability to box for decisions is well-taken. He showed the intelligence and adaptability to go the distance and pick up rounds strategically, which certainly presents challenges for Mercer. However, because I see Weaver being susceptible to pressure (detectable in his rounds against Tate and, to a lesser extent, Coetzee before he gassed out), I think Mercer's consistent aggression and durability could cause Weaver significant issues over the course of 12 rounds.

Ultimately, these types of fantasy match-ups will always have room for divergence. Weaver's adaptability and durability certainly make him a serious threat for Mercer, and a points win for him is not out of the question. Conversely, Mercer's ability to apply sustained pressure and absorb punishment could swing the fight in his favor. Best-for-best, it's an intriguing clash of abilities and attitudes, with each man's strengths posing questions the other might struggle to answer.

 

Superb reply and a fine discussion. I don't dispute that if there were to somehow be a stoppage, Mercer would produce it. And Ray has been credited as jabbing well with Holmes in center ring.

Certainly an intriguing fantasy promotion and we've each made our cases. It's been disputed rather or not Mercer's easy amateur decision over Tommy was of any significance in their professional rematch, and I believe the case is there. Ray and his team expected he could absorb it from Morrison again, and as with their previous three rounder, Mercer was much farther along again. Tommy's far less amount of experience cost him severely that second time all over.

Again, I love Hercules for making the most of his ability DESPITE his physique with oxygen gobbling muscles, and wonder what Ray might've achieved with the same work ethic that carried Mike to seven title bouts in all, and made him the only alternative HW Champion to win multiple defenses during Larry's reign. (It would've been more if Weaver hadn't inured himself while foolishly experimenting with weights. Ironically, Norton was previously accused of being "muscle bound" despite savagely criticizing Earnie's use of weights during Shavers-Tiger. In another broadcast of a Shavers bout, the physically strong Jerry Quarry also criticized Earnie for that. Shavers himself disowned weight training for boxing in retirement, and advocated lumberjack type strength conditioning like what Ali used to wear down Foreman. Frazier never approved of weights, and stated as much in 2005's "Box Like the Pros.")

 

No offense but Ken Norton, Iron Mike...