What if Joe Fraizer retired after beating Ali?

Would he be ranked even higher in the eyes of the people as he no longer has his Ali/Foreman losses? Whats your opinion?


Haven’t been on the forums cuz im totally out of ideas for posts but I fired all 2 of my neurons to think up this one.

 

Doesn't really go down as a great fighter in my opinion, while it was a tough fight it's unheard of for a heavyweight champion to retire after one tough fight.
That being said, people at the time really didn't know how frazier would look after it, i read a 1972 magazine where there was especulation of joe almost dying after the fight, and people not really knowing if he would fight ever again, let alone win or rematch with Ali. The damage he took in that fight seriously affected his carrer, compare the first quarry fight with the rematch

 

It would hurt him if anything IMO. Foreman would still become Champion & still lose to Ali. With Frazier sidelined, Ali overshadows him even further. The reality is, as good as Frazier was from 1965-71, it’s still only a six year career. Not long enough for greatness really, though he would certainly still be remembered.

 

Good post. But an unbeaten record always adds a bit of mystique to a fighter's ratings.

I rate Frazier in the bottom half of my all top 10 all time heavy list. A great fighter.

 

It certainly does, but how many of the greats can say their only losses were to guys routinely ranked in the top 10 of their division, & almost as frequently in the top 5?

 

Yes indeed. Losing to a post-prime yet still highly dangerous Muhammad Ali and prime George Foreman is no disgrace.

 

Its complicated. On one hand you could argue he'd beat anyone H2H.

But on the other hand as is Fraziers career is very short for an ATG HW who fought 50 years ago. If we cut off the section of his career you're talking about Fraziers career is only 135 rounds. If you give him his 2 last fights before the Foreman loss its 143 rounds. Someone like a Riddick Bowe had 195. Rocky had 241. People would credit Fraziers undefeated record to a short career.

 

I wish he had retired as undefeated champion after the biggest fight of all time. Very likely, he would still be alive, basking in the glory of his record.

 

This is one of the things I wrestle with about Frazier, I've said i thought he was overrated given his number of fights and his specific losses. But then, his 4 losses were to who I consider both the top 5 HW's in history. To me it's hard to place Frazier anyway but then you take away 35% of his career that means he would've retired with around 23ish fights. How is that a HOF career?

 

it is very easy. How big was Frazier's success after 1971? Had he retired in 1971, he would have been remembered for beating the undefeated Muhammad Ali. And that he achieved so much in such a short time, and no one would argue that he had no chance against George Formen. We would speculate what the fight would look like, but no reasonable person would think it would end the way it did. Assuming that Ali would dominate in the following years, many people would consider Joe Frazier to be the best or top 3 next to Joe Louis. another thing is that the whole history of that era could have turned out differently due to the butterfly effect. It is very possible that Foreman would have won against Ali, then the victory over Muhammad would not have been such an ennoblement. Overall, however, it would cement Joe's legend as one of the best. It would be the same if Liston ended his career right after Patterson, George Foreman after Frazier, and Mike Tyson after Spinks.

 

I have sometimes wondered if Foreman had met Ali in Jamaica, early 1973 as just another face in the crowd of contenders, could he have blown away an Ali as lackadaisical as Frazier was in that same position? I wonder.

 

Foreman was the clear favorite, it didn't come out of nowhere, of course Ali was underestimated at that time. George may have been overrated, but Ali was certainly better prepared for the fight mentally and the place was very favorable to him. The circumstances were special. George wasn't ready for such a fight. Not like Ali. He could have won 9 fights out of 10, I think. Style also mattered. It is also worth paying attention to what Foreman's last fights looked like and what Ali's fights looked like before Kinshasa. Quick and easy wins will never stick around for long. Liston had the same problem in 1964, Tyson had the same problem in 1996

 

The problem they faced was finally running into a tougher sonofabitch than they were. I love Foreman's recounting of nailing Ali with a perfect right, it not fazing Ali, and Ali saying "that all you got?", and how that got in his head bad because, actually, yeah, that was all he had.

There's something about the bully finally going up against a guy tougher than they are that really messes with them when they realize. Even funnier when the tougher guy is the rhyming ****er who likes to talk about how good looking he is, or the mama's boy who uses gospel music for his ring walk.

 

Do you think an over-confident Ali against a relatively unknown Foreman would still have won in Jamaica, as he did in Zaire?

 

I think Ali always had his number. He might have taken more damage and it might have been closer, but Ali's durability, toughness, fearlessness, ring IQ, and adaptability were always going to be a big issue for Foreman.