Where do you rank Floyd Patterson at heavyweight?

This is a good point. He could not beat Liston and ali but floyd did all he could by taking them on twice a peice (although I dont think he performd at all against sonny) and held his own with the rest. no shame in that. I was watching his fight with jackson not so long ago and jackson looked like a handfull. in fact floyd looks a good champ. I have seen jackson against valdes and was not impressed but he was tough in the title fight with floyd.

 

I have been open with you. we all have our blind spots...

ezzard charles vs satterfeild and his post championship run, thats another one of the charitys I suport.

 

He is a great heavyweight. I just think there's enough to push him beyond my top 20.

His 70's run is very underrated imo.

 

Thats the thing with over one hundred years of filmed history it has got to the stage where an ATG can drop quite low and still be great. people get shirty about their favorite fighters moving down the chain but there are a lot of fighters to consider now. from #6-25 are a simular level in my veiw.

 

10 best wins

1. Floyd Patterson KO 1
2. Floyd Patterson KO 1
3. Zora Folley KO 3
4. Eddie Machen W 12
5. Cleveland Williams TKO 2
6. Cleveland Williams KO 3
7. Nino Valdes TKO 4
8. Mike DeJohn TKO 6
9. Roy Harris TKO 1
10. Johnny Summerlin W 8


All of these men outside of Valdes were in their PRIME. Some of these men showcased high level boxing skills/fundamentals on film while others demonstrated tremendous punching power. A tremendous balance in variation of styles beaten for Liston.


Liston's resume easily surpasses Sullivan's. Sullivan fought a bunch of white gooftroopers who didn't know a thing about boxing skill. Machen, Folley, Patterson would have embarrassed every single bareknuckle fighter of that era with true modern boxing skills.


Liston's resume easily surpasses Jeffries. Corbett was 33 and 36 years old, past his prime, and hadn't won a fight in 4 years. Fitzsimmons was 37 years old and only 165lb..he wouldn't stand a chance against a 26 year old 195lb Floyd Patterson or 6'3 215lb 25 year old cleveland williams. Sharkey was only 5'8 and shows less boxing skills than most amatuers. Folley and Machen would have boxed circles around Sharkey. 6'3 210lb Nino Valdes would have flattened 163lb Joe Choynski in 1 round.

Liston's resume is better than Jack Dempsey's. The only name that really sticks out on jack dempsey's resume is Jack Sharkey, but dempsey beat him in highly controversial fashion. Liston beat all of his men in clear dominating fashion. Cleveland Williams and Nino Valdes would have steamrolled Luis Firpo, Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, 37 year old Jess Willard.. Eddie Machen and Zora Folley were far more schooled in boxing skills than Billy Miske and Bill Brennan. A prime floyd patterson was better than anyone Dempsey ever beat.


Who did Jack Johnson ever beat that was as good as prime versions of Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams, and Zora Folley?


George Foreman beat Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Michael Moorer, Ron Lyle. Who else? Liston would have beaten all of these men early too. How would Foreman have done against slicksters like Machen and Folley?


Marciano arguably never beat as good a fighter as a prime floyd patterson. Folley, Machen, Williams were much better than Layne, Lastarza, and Cockell. Marcianos resume is VERY good(Walcott, Charles, Louis, Moore), but even his resume is missing the elite prime young punchers Liston has.
Liston also beat Valdes whom Marciano's camp slightly avoided(of course rocky himself had no fear)


Larry Holmes? Folley, Williams Machen, Patterson all just as good as guys like Ken Norton, Tim Witherspoon, Mike Weaver, and Earnie Shavers

Frazier has a very good resume, but he doesn't have the variety of styles Liston faced. Frazier never beat an elite big puncher.

 

Sam langford?

I like machen and folley but didnt peak folley and machen both lose to white european gooftroopers?

I would not include williams -layne, lastarza and cockell at least beat rated fighters and paid their dues at world level.

How does Floyd get on against marciano, walcott and charles?

is machen better than layne? its neglegable.

Patterson was as hard to beat as leon spinks was for someone like Holmes. machen and folley against weaver and witherspoon? roy harris against cooney and berbick? washed up valdes against Norton? come on. big cat williams loses to bones smith.

bonnavena? quarry? frazier beat machen and beat ali...

 

OK, not "flaws" at all, just a couple moderate biases which I believe you clearly favor. I want to have this debate, so please take nothing I say as aggressive or ill-willed.


A) you obviously favor mythical H2H match-ups. I don't even factor that one iota into the equation, which may make you understand my placement if nothing else, a tad bit more.

B) you aren't very capable at distinguishing differences between the 1910's, 1960's, 1890's, 1970's, etc. TOTALLY different eras. Not just time either. Everybody active past those in front of them have the benefits of then revolutionary training techniques, rule changes, and understanding and advancements of boxing skills. Literally, this IS true; obviously Sullivan will look like a drunken bar fighter, Johnson will seem a little robotic defensively, and Dempsey will swing like a wild cave man, they fought a century ago when the lineal list of heavyweight champs was zero to five.

C) This one is going to be controversial. What about fixed fights? I realize we can't "assume" certain fights were fixed, but two of his biggest losses and his two biggest wins seem that way. I don't treat them as so. Just like I treat Primo Carnera's resume as legitimate and have him at an admittedly HIGHLY debatable #28 all time at heavy (I did make the list a year+ ago, typing this up down here I would slide him down, but still...).

Primo Carnera:
1. Jack Sharkey KO 6 (won title)
2. Tommy Loughran UD 15 (defense)
3. Paulino Uzcudun UD 15 (defense)
4. Paulino Uzcudun SD 10
5. Young Stribling DQ 4
6. Ernie Schaaf KO 13
7. George Godfrey DQ 5
8. King Levinsky PTS 10
9. King Levinsky PTS 10
10. Jim Maloney PTS 10

No one gives Carnera his dues as though his career was legit due to his mafia association, same as Liston. Where do you stand on this example of Carnera?

D) Regarding Liston's victories: the top 6 on the above list you posted are fantastic to good wins. Unlike most here on ESB, I come completely forward when I am unfamiliar to speak on certain subjects, in this case, the Nino Valdes victory. The Patterson KO's are fantastic. Folley and Machen: impressive wins. Plus he beat a prime Cleveland, not an anciet one like Ali, which gets over mentioned in my opinion. Most impressive though are his early dispatching of all these greats. However, I do get the feeling Liston somehow gets a pass despite being linked to the mob heavier than any other fighter in history (spare for maybe Primo himself), and for having an Aaron Pryor moment with the "oil" on the gloves, which several others than Ali have cited.

E) You're opinion of Foreman I personally find to be way off. When I look for his top ten, I conclude:

George Foreman:
1. Joe Frazier TKO 2
2. Joe Frazier TKO 5
3. Ron Lyle KO 5
4. Ken Norton TKO 2
5. Michael Moorer KO 10
6. Gregorio Peralta TKO 10
7. Gregorio Peralta UD 10
8. George Chuvalo TKO 3
9. Jose Roman KO 1
10. Gerry Cooney TKO 2
11. Dwight Muhammad Qawi TKO 7
12. Chuck Wepner TKO 3

The top five wins are legendary, and smoke Liston's top five, maybe even his entire top ten, by themselves. Peralta was a very good fighter, underrated victories. Chuvalo was older, but still coming off a win over Quarry earlier in the year and still went on to last 12 with Ali. I'll admit the competition completely drops off after that, but would you say the Roman KO defense, ancient Cooney, lone heavyweight fight Qawi, and Wepner are dismissible?

His defeat to Ali should be seen as better than Liston's, on the grounds of Foreman not oiling his glove and quitting in the first round of the re-match (tell me if you think the phantom punch is a legit KO).

F) Upon further studying Liston's other defeats, my respect for him does rise. The Marshall defeat in his, what, fifth bout doesn't mean TOO TOO much, considering the two quick rematches, Liston KO'ing him in one of those two. And the last defeat to Leotis Martin came at the age of 37 in the twilight years. One thing though I believe even you must admit: after the Ali fights, he does very little to enhance his legacy, virtually nothing actually. Wepner's a respectable win, but hey, Foreman KO'd him in his fourth fight, one year before Liston.

---
But yeah, this writing has changed my opinions of Liston for sure, for the better. I'll probably send you this as a PM too, wouldn't want it going to waste or forgetting to check back.

 

:think

Based on your uses of the term "gooftrooper" across multiple threads, I'm beginning to suspect that it denotes a moderately good contender like Firpo. Something like this:

The Great Boxing Ladder of Greatness

1. All Time Greats
2. Jimmy Young
3. Top 5 Contenders
4. Gooftroopers
5. Fringe Contenders
6. Gatekeepers
7. Journeymen
8. Tomato Cans

 

Thats a solid post. Ill respond tomorrow. I agree with most of what your write.

 

Adilson Rodriguez and Lou Savarese probably belong in there, or at least before Chuck Wepner and Jose roman.