Who did Holmes duck?

Ernie Shavers and Gerry Cooney knocked out a world champion to earn their shots at Holmes. The rest of the contenders were really no better nor worse than one another, a bunch of inexperienced manufactured records. The WBC took their fee out of the 20 million or so Holmes v Cooney gross and decided to strip Holmes for wanting two voluntary defences within a couple of months when often the rule would allow this so long as the mandatory is met within a period. They did not give Holmes much chance did they? Also Page was not any more of a draw than Marvis Frazier because his resume was no more inspiring than a multitude of men around at that time. Why didn't the WBC allow Holmes the chance to do what he had already done over and over since 1978 and meet the mandatory guy within a period?

These guys Holmes never got to fight were regarded no higher than Witherspoon and WIlliams were when Holmes had them backfire on him. What kind of outstanding contenders were Tubbs and Dokes? What tremendous wins on the way up made them any more pressing issues than David Bey?

The WBA was an outpost for those who could not beat Larry Holmes.

 

Larry fudged the Page fight. The fact is, he was still WBC before and after the fight with Marvis Frazier and the mandatory defence was still in effect, with the offer of around £2.5 million was still in place. It was then he vacated the crown. He could have signed then and fought early 84, instead Super Greg fought Witherspoon.

 

Why the heck does hegrant continue to write me?

At any rate, absolutely. Flu or not, it was a competitive fight and Weaver much improved after the loss, establishing him as the clear #2 man in the division behind Holmes for the next two years.

And the Dokes fights were a farce, seemingly orchestrated by King to take Weaver out of the picture.

 

First off, I'm not writing you .. I'm posting on the forum. Don't believe it's your's but you have a habit of being delusional ..

Flu or not. OK sure. However it was a KO victory and quite a gutsy one and decisive one at that. A greast but losing effort by Weaver.

While the first Dokes fight seemed to be stopped a bit quickly, that sort of Don King manipulation is precisely why Holmes made up his mind to stop being a pawn when he was finally able to do so ..

AS far as Weaver goes, I always liked him but he was severely limited. He had the distinction of losing to both Bobicks. He was stopped quite a few times. As far as training, did Larry have more time when he was driving a truck for most of his early career ? After Holmes, Weaver stopped Tate in a huge upset with a one shot KO after losing virtually every round. He then looked very shaky against Tillis. He then beat a Coetzee who's claim to fame was stopping novice Leon Spinks. The fact is that Weaver was looked at as a short term filler and while Holmes likely should have given him another shot there was much bigger fish to fry in an Ali bout which had a huge public demand. At the end of the day Holmes did stop him and the Shavers and then Ali fights was where where the money and demand were. That being said, styles make fights and Larry certainly did not push to clear the record on this bout.

 

Why the heck does hegrant continue to write me?
:huh

 

Not true, Weaver was perceived as an improved fighter after the Holmes fight and it was a life an death battle that some feel was stopped quickly... after being behind against Big John Tate (who many felt was the true Champ) Weaver showed late ferocious power and then beat Coetzee so Weaver knock off 2 of Holmes threats and a rematch would have been for the unification and $$$ Weaver chased Tillis but did not look shaky in fact he showed a power jab that rocked Tillis who ran his ass off....

We can blame King for the avoidance of many and for the total lack of rematching tough fights but a piece of it has to fall on the Holmes legacy and overall rating, let face it 6 co-champs he could have unified against and 3 tough fights he never rematched...add that to a list of 10-12-13-15-16 fight guys and Leon Spinks at 10-2-2, who was KO'd in 1 round by Coetzee 2 years earlier ( why did Coetzee get overlooked) and then he fought Snipes who was dropped 2X by Coetzee & King robbed of a title shot ( everyone knew Coetzee beat Snipes)

Page was erratic but Holmes still gave up a title not to fight him ( I personally think a tip top conditioned Page (Rare) would offer problems for Holmes)

Shavers was an easy UD for Holmes in 78 so he did not expect a tougher fight in 79 and while Earnie did have the KO over Norton he had already been beaten stopped and dropped by guys like Quarry,Lye, 21-24-Bob Stallings and was Ko'd by Bernardo Mercado directly after the 2nd Holmes fight so while Shavers was one of Holmes top 2 opponents, he was still thought of as a guy that had early danger and fizzled

when you talk about Weaver losing to Bobicks, it was early in his career, Jimmy Young and JJ Walcott, Dempsey, Johnson had early losses and Weaver was a trial horse. Something prior to the Holmes fight gave him confidence but his confidence surged after Holmes because he came close to winning and hurt and wobbled Larry....Joe Louis or Marciano or Ali would have rematch that fight immediately but even after Weaver KO'd Tate and KO'd Coetzee he avoided a Weaver rematch and unification....I really wanted that fight as a fan, it was a natural and it would have had the ability to be a very promotable fight at the time.

 

the irony is that no one expected Michael Spinks to beat Holmes in his very 1st heavyweight fight and Michael was not perceived as the threat that Thomas, Coetzee, Dokes, Page,Weaver,Tate, would have been

 

funny it was the same world Champion (who lost to every puncher he faced) Norton and I think both were in the first round.....Cooney was marketable but in reality never fought more than 8 rounds and had not fought more than 2 rounds in over 2 years

 

Of course Weaver was viewed as improved post Holmes. He was viewed as such a journeyman before the fight that no network would air the fight. IT had to go HBO I believe and at thew time that was small potatoes. Look , I would have like to see Holmes fight him again because I believe Holmes would have defeated him decisively .. that being said he did stop him clean, very few think it was stopped early but then again some here believe Foreman - Chuvalo was stopped early … s far as the rest straigh up Bummy, which one of the Page, Thomas, Coetzee do you feel beats Holmes ? The topic is boring …

 

Your wit, charm and overall depth of knowledge is irresistible. :nut Thought you blocked me ? If so, why did you reinstate me ?

 

Let us try approaching it this way:

Does anyone give more than a 40% chance of victory to any of these supposedly ducked parties if they had in fact landed Holmes between the ropes when they ought to have? (Page, Spoon II, etc)

I'm very curious to hear the answer, plus any more detailed explanations should there be any yeses...

 

I think they all had a better chance then Cooney or Shavers,all of them were more durable than Shavers or Cooney and had proven stamina unlike Shavers or Cooney. Weaver was showing late power with his 15th KO over Big John & 14th against Coetzee (which was a competitive fight) keep in mind Larry was my favorite fighter of the era but I was disappointed with he & King) Page had a chance, Thomas IMO beats Holmes before he went back to his addiction, Coetzee had a better chance then Snipes and Page had that funny right hand like M.Spinks but with more power.....If the topic is boring to you I didn't start the tread but this is the TRUTH, I lived the era (not looked it up on box-rec) I dont say Larry should have fought them all but 6 co-champs and 3 tough rematch avoidance's raises a RED flag

 

BITE, little fishes, BITE!

 

For me this is the point of the discussion. Not saying he outright ducked all of them, not saying he should have fought all of them but for some reason Larry is bulletproof from criticism while guys like Dempsey, Marciano even Tyson get destroyed by some fans even though their failings don't come anywhere close to approaching Larry's.

On a unrelated note i really would have liked to see Larry and George get it on in the early 90's.

 

that WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD FIGHT and I am not sure who would have taken it in the seniors version, George had the good right hand but slower than Tyson and Larry had the Jab...George's stamina improved from the old version and George got more effective with the Jab. Using the Evander fights as a measuring stick it looks like a close fight