I don't think those guys count as "co champs" at all. The whole thread of the alternative title was it was a "championship of men who could not beat Holmes". It was more like a belt to be #1 contender. Good but untested guys who lost after one good win. Each of them should have been challenging Holmes rather than Holmes chasing them. Especially since they couldn't stay victorious. Weaver was a good man, he found form but even though he upset Tate and Coetzee he was never going to overshadow Ali's comeback attempt at Holmes. Jimmy Bivins was the wartime #1 but he had to wait for Louis v Conn once Louis came home..and still missed a shot. It's the same thing. At the same time as weaver had a bit of a run there was also Berbick and Cooney who had as much of an argument to challenge Larry. Ultimately Weaver blew his chance getting tied up with the Dokes episodes.
This is a good point Bummy. I don't think Holmes is bulletproof but I don't think those men class as co-champs. They were no better than men Holmes beat. It was ranking manipulations. Not many who challenged for any title earned their shot. That includes Holmes chalengers and rival belt holders and their challengers.
When Page lost to Berbick, either he dropped a notch in the WBC rankings, or stayed at #3.Berbick loses to Snipes, Page beats a James Tillis, who was ranked highly, Frazier, and a #2 Snipes, gets that mandatory.Holmes blew it, as Anthony pointed out.:good
There is more to it. Page was completely embarrassed by Berbick. He did not just lose he was thrashed. Holmes the fights Berbick. Page loses to Bey. Holmes fights Bey and stops him. Page" like Coetzee and Thomas did not keep win streaks alive to force fights that would generate Holmes the money. I know Larry and he has always been about the money. He fought Tyson on no notice after a long layoff for money. He basically took the easier fights for the same money most of the time past Cooney but Witheroon and Weaver should have gotten rematches.
Greg page my ass. Holmes would have beat the **** out of Page. So tired of hearing this. Page didn't do **** as a pro. Fat lazy half ass Ali wannabe.
Shh, no more ripples, you'll scare off all the fishes. I'm waiting for one to mount a serious case that could reasonably convince someone that Holmes would have lost to Page or any of the other "duckees". (duckies?) So far all I'm seeing is the odd little bubble breaking the calm surface. They're either deep in thought...or gassy.
Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, and Witherspoon and Williams were bad style matchups for Holmes -- and I think Holmes knew that. He definitely knew Witherspoon and Williams were bad match-ups after both those guys pushed Holmes to the limit (I feel Carl Williams outpointed Holmes in their fight). The criticism is against Holmes for not fighting the better, more talented fighters; we were not debating which guy or guys would have probably beaten Holmes. We already know that Witherspoon and Williams had the tools, and those guys were untested novices at the time they encountered Holmes. And you know Holmes didn't rematch either guy. Larry knew Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas were dangerous guys -- that's why he avoided them. And since we all know how erratic and hot-and-cold both Page and Thomas could be, it's amazing that Holmes was so fearful of either guy. I think Thomas would have beaten Holmes had they fought in late '84, early '85. Greg Page would have been tough as well.
Holmes didn't fight the better more talented fighters? He beat Berbick who beat both page, Tate and Thomas! Holmes actually beat Berbick, Weaver, Smith and Witherspoon in person. Holmes beat Bey BECAUSE he beat Page and he beat Snipes BECAUSE he beat Coetzee. I still don't know who Dokes and Tubbs ever beat to wind up fighting for a title but I do know Witherspoon beat Tubbs and that Dokes could not convincingly beat Tex Cobb in two fights...and Holmes crucified Cobb. The one thing all these contenders had in common is they could beat each other and either lose to Holmes himself or lose to a guy Holmes already beat. It's kind of hard to push a challenger who already lost to a guy the champ beat. I think Thomas could have been a strong challenger around the time Holmes was dithering with retirement but I can't ever see Holmes, even end of the line Holmes, losing to any version of Trevor Berbick as Thomas did at that time.
Thomas had nothing to offer Holmes. He was a one armed fighter all he had was a jab and even that wasn't comparable to Larry's. The only thing that wound up beating Holmes is that he didn't age well.
a little deceiving how you answered that, It was Mike Weaver that ruined John Tate and Berbick beat Tate after Weaver badly KO'd Big John... Berbick did not fight Page until 6-11-82 after Holmes already fought Berbick on 4-11-81 and he did not fight Thomas until 3-22-86 ( when it was reported Thomas was back on dope) and Tate had stopped Bernardo Mercado in 2 rounds (the same Mercado who KO'd Berbick in 1) and that was all prior to Weaver beating Tate Tate also Ko'd Duane Bobick (who stopped Holmes in the Amateurs, it was called a DQ but Ali commenting with Cosell said Holmes was looking for a way out after being dropped) There was a Large window of opportunity for Holmes to fight The Better fighters, Tate, Weaver, Coetzee ( most felt Coetzee beat Snipes with 2 KD's in a 10 rounder and suspected foul play by King) There was a time when all these fights made complete sense and would have produced big $$$( Tate,Weaver2, Coetzee,Thomas,Dokes,Page but King hand-picked opponents for Holmes while manipulating the ratings and ABC puppets to control how things played out. Holmes did not always go after the $$$ fights when too much risk was involved
I agree with you Bummy those fights made sense. A lot of other fights made sense too but it was a crazy, crazy time. The dilution of a championship means it takes a lot less to make a ranking and Holmes and the lesser holders benefited from selecting untested chalengers from a diluted system. The difference of course is that Holmes's opposite number, the paper champions, could not get past the product of this diluted system. They could not beat Holmes victims or other contenders coming up. Holmes could. Who is to say Berbick, Snipes, Bey, bonecrusher Smith, Marvis Frazier, and Carl Williams would not have won a belt had they fought "the other champion" on the night they each met Holmes? Did michael Dokes or Tony Tubbs do any more than Marvis Frazier to earn title fights? They both wound up winning a belt (for five minutes) because unlike Marvis they did not have to challenge a champion like Holmes. f there was no belt for weaver to win from Tate, Weaver would have stood in line as #1 contender while he waited for Muhammad Ali's comeback to play out until he blew his credibility with untested Dokes. It would have been like Jersey Joe's wilderness years between title fights.
Yet when undefeated Snipes was stopped by Holmes on the spin Renaldo drew with Scott Frank then lost to 14-0 greenhorn Witherspoon then beat Berbick and was granted an eliminatior with Page all because the WBC fell out with Holmes! He was 1-3-1 in his last 5 after losing to Page. Since beating Snipes, Holmes beat Cooney and Witherspoon. And WItherspoon beat Page only to lose straight away to Thomas who then lost to sraight away to Berbick whilst Page lost to Bey before Holmes beat Bey then Smith before Smith knocked out Witherspoon and Weaver in one round each....
Exactly the point I've been making for years here .. No doubt Holme could have fought any of those guys but as he was getting older he went independent and went for the money he could make on his own terms .. IN addition he did fight many of the guys who beat these guys .. in addition, he still fought very big, tough, talented young guys .. Witherspoon was in the best shape of his life for the Holmes fight. Bonecrusher was a very bought guy. Williams was a very skillful guy .. Bey was a tough guy and had just beat Greg Page .. yes there was a Scott Frank and a Rodriquez in there but come on, he had 20 defenses. He was still an older fighter fighting big, young heavyweights not a younger champion fighting old, blown up light heavyweights or just old guys with shot legs ..