Who did Holmes duck?

:good

 

-Not sure what that has to do with anything with the point being that Holmes is certainly capable of losing to someone he was heavily favored to beat, so asking for the odds is a mute point.

-I don't buy that. Spinks gave it a go against Holmes to milk the lineal HW title before retirement, he never had intentions of actively mixing it up with the contenders of the division and he didn't.

 

This is true. Spinks went after Holmes for retirement money but was encouraged to hang around a bit longer, he had no intention of establishing himself as a heavyweight champion. To some extent M. Spinks felt he beat the real champion so he did not need to prove anything. Deep down Spinks knew Holmes was only getting by on size and experience because his opponents had been so inexperienced. Spinks could match Holmes for experience. He saw it as fight with a big old man no wiser than he was but was not as keen to gamble against bigger younger men as Holmes had been.


Irionically the ring magazine (dispite other publications throughout Holmes reighn often listed the title as vacent) even presented Spinks with a ring belt and called him "the people's champion" so that spinks could defend against a retired Gerry Cooney rather than Mike Tyson or an albeit untested Tony Tucker.

 

Which publications listed the heavyweight title as vacant during Holmes' reign? The Ring recognized Holmes as champ after Weaver beat Tate, though I believe they later revised their own history by saying he won the title against Ali. World Boxing, KO, etc., didn't recognize champions in any division from mid 1977 until… when? They just rated the best man #1 and the others #2 through #10, which was a smart way of dealing with the emerging alphabet soup chaos. The 90's? Boxing Illustrated, during that era, was owned by The Ring and used Ring's ratings. I didn't have access to Britain's Boxing News and probably a few other publications at that time, so I'm not doubting you. Just curious.

Per The Ring, Larry Holmes was World Heavyweight Champion from 1980 until he lost to Michael Spinks. Spinks was champion (thus being awarded the belt) until he lost to Tyson. I recall a quote in which even Tyson's management acknowledged that Tyson wouldn't be the true World Heavyweight Champion until he beat Spinks. I don't remember if it was Cayton or Jacobs who said this, but I'm thinking Jacobs.

BTW, I don't think Ring had any stock in a Spinks-Cooney fight. I'd bet if you talked to whomever was on Ring's staff at the time they'd tell you that they would have preferred that Spinks fight Tyson sometime in 1987, the earlier the better.

 

It was no lose for Spinks ... Holmes was older, not training like he once did and showing signs of slipping .. his legs were clearly not what they were .. he struggled to win v.s. Bonecrusher and Williams .. the signs were all there .. Spinks took a shot .. he was a huge under dog .. the fight was considered a joke .. but he won .. then post rematch the question was how to make money low risk .. Cooney proved to be perfect .. Tyson obviously was another matter ..

 

why does hegrant keep writing me?

 

Disagree about th spinks risk factor. Prior to him there had been very few successful challengers moving up from 175.

The other big fly in the ointment was the recent form of Spinks himself. The Davis fight. I thought he lost and it was not as close of a call as Holmes had with Williams. But a big bout between the 2 was being discussed, so the major participants seldom lose close decisions in those kinds of fights.

At best Spinks looked stale. He got hit every minute of every round. He got hit more in that fight than his previous 4 and it had been a long time since he'd been caught clean so often. So we had a Mike Spinks getting caught clean moving up in weight to take on an old undefeated champion.

And Larry Holmes is a whole different kettle of fish than Davis. So there was definately a risk.

By the same token, Larry had not taken on this kind of pedigree in a long long time. An established undefeated champion. Not an inexperienced face first guy.

It made for an interesting match that most folks thought Larry would win. Maybe not easily, but he'd be the guy with his hand raised. But there was a contingent of folks picking Spinks for the upset.

Hardly a forgone conclusion type of fiight going in and both guys were stepping into the ring facing some tools and pedigree.

 

Besides the whole point of my post was "odds" can't be used to dismiss a contender as unworthy.

And one of the "ducked" fighters in questoin, Thomas, was Holmes' #1 contender at the time of these fights anyway.

 

I don't remember Thomas shouting for a Holmes fight. Thomas never beat anyone decent before meeting Witherspoon. You could argue that Pinklon was Tim's gimmie that backfired. Where as soon after Larry took on a similarly qualified bonecrusher and won. Ten months after winning his belt Thomas defends against old hand mike Weaver who in his last fight was knocked out after the bell by Tony Anthony on the Holmes -Smith card. By then Holmes had already beat undefeated David Bey and undefeated WIlliams. Thomas kind of sat around until he lost to old hand Berbick a month before Holmes fought Spinks the second time.

 

They all approached Holmes but knew King and Holmes was picking there spots ...Bey got a close win over an out of shape and uninspired Page but only won 4 of his next 16 fights after fighting Holmes, Bey was never title material with his 14-1 record and Bone Crusher was green as a Granny Smith 14-1 apple when he got his title shot vs Holmes...dont you see the pattern here, 10-Marvis,10-2-2 Spinks,13, 16,guys....they picked the inexperienced and the perceived hopeless

Thomas had a strong draw vs Coetzee (the right hand Holmes avoided) and he was Champ and the clearly improved Weaver had almost 3 years as co-champ but Holmes and King never bit....you can rose color it but I remember it....If it was Vlad doing this today this board would be on fire

 

Point is that Thomas is a name being dropped around, and he was a possible opponent around the time of Holmes/Spinks. So i'm not sure why people are talking about matching him against a "prime" Holmes.


At any rate, I don't see why the most qualified "contender" would have to shout for a fight, but he did anyway.

[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-15/sports/sp-12451_1_pinklon-thomas[/url]

There isn't but one heavyweight champion, and that's me," Thomas said with as much conviction as he could muster. "Larry Holmes is a contender."



"When you ask now, 'Who's the champion?' no one knows. I want to be part of the reunification.''

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/02/sports/heavyweight-unity-is-goal-of-thomas.html[/url]

SM) Why didn’t you and Larry Holmes ever get together and fight?

(PT) Larry Holmes. Because Larry Holmes would never fight me. I used to get mad when people would ask me that. I cornered him all along the way.

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/news.php?p=17826&more=1[/url]

 

I looked upon Holmes as THE champion as early as Summer 1979.

 

Coetzee won his title the same month Holmes beat Scott Frank. Frank drew with the same guy who had a win over Coetzee.

Even so, Gerrie did not defend until 15 months later. In that time Holmes beat three guys to Coetzee's none. when coetzee did eventually fight again it was to a guy who already lost to Bey whom was one of the three Larry beat within that time. And gerrie lost that fight.

All in all during the window whereCoetzee and (or) Thomas could have challenged Holmes Thomas fought a man who was knocked out in his last fight then lost to a man Holmes and Snipes already beat And Coetzee (who already lost to snipes and already proved to be no better than Thomas when they drew) was idle until losing to a guy Holmes' s recent knock out victim had just beat.

That's not to say Larry could not or should not have fought Coetzee. The fight was almost made during that time.

Thomas looked good but he had not proved to be better than Coetzee. Did that make Thomas an outstanding contender?

Pinklon defended against a man who was knocked out in his last fight then lost to a Holmes victim.

Holmes was not beating anyone but all those Wba and wbc challengers were no better.

Coetzee
Thomas
Bey
Williams
Weaver
Berbick
Smith

All good fighters in their own way, put them all in a box, shake them about, who was best?

 

You actually think Larry was scared of Pinky or Herc, Mac?