Who is the GOAT of 140?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dorrian_Grey, Apr 23, 2024.

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Who is the GOAT of 140

  1. Aaron Pryor

    7 vote(s)
    16.7%
  2. J. C. Chavez

    26 vote(s)
    61.9%
  3. Jack Kid Berg

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Josh Taylor

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  5. Tony Canzoneri

    2 vote(s)
    4.8%
  6. Tim Bradley

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Ricky Hatton

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  8. Kostya Tszyu

    3 vote(s)
    7.1%
  9. Bud Crawford

    2 vote(s)
    4.8%
  10. Nicolino Locche

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    If you’re including Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross should definitely be on the list as well.
     
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  2. Dorrian_Grey

    Dorrian_Grey It came to me in a dream Full Member

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    Benitez was a bit of a bird of passage at the weight I think. He turned pro at 15, spent two years fighting unremarkable journeymen before getting his title shot against Cervantes at 17. It's extraordinary what Benitez achieved at such a young age and he was a true boxing prodigy but outside of the win over Cervantes (an excellent win in all fairness), he defended his title only twice against okay contenders but the meat and potatoes of his accomplishments really came at 147 and 154, not 140. He probably has a better argument to be on the poll than Bradley does though.
     
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  3. Dorrian_Grey

    Dorrian_Grey It came to me in a dream Full Member

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    Perkins best wins at the weight are against Loi, and in the trilogy, he went 1-1-1 against Loi (though I've read he was possibly robbed in one of them), he defended the undisputed championship 3 times against solid contenders but no real standouts. He was also kinda inconsistent and lost most of what would have been his career defining fights (Locche, Napoles, and Loi). A good fighter, one of the best at the weight, but we have barely any tape on him, while his being avoided and handed some dodgy homer decisions mean we don't really have a clear picture of how good Perkins was unfortunately.
    As for Loi, he seldom travelled outside of Italy and when he did, wasn't as successful. His best wins are over Carlos Ortiz and Eddie Perkins, but both wins are hurt by the fact some reports and surviving tape seem to indicate the home judges Loi relied on saved him from defeat by robbing Ortiz and Perkins. He also never unified against Locche.
    Napoles didn't so all too much at 140 either. He never even won a title at the weight. He beat Perkins in what was scored a shut-out with a KD but seemingly ducked a rematch and never gave Perkins a title shot at 147. Perkins has also vehemently claimed he did far better in that fight than the scores suggest. Besides Perkins though, who else did Matequilla fight at 140? Eugenio Espinoza was the best name I could find outside of Perkins. Eye-test wise, Napoles scores well, but as for achievements at the weight, he doesn't do so well unfortunately.
     
  4. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think you're making a bit light of Napoles at 140. In fact, he was rated in the top 10 from '62 until '68 when he hooked up with George Parnassus at the Inglewood Forum with no title shot forthcoming at 140. As the #1 contender at that weight, he was deftly avoided by Sandro Lopoppolo. The Italian had a myriad of excuses on why he couldn't defend against the Cuban. At one point he was told by the WBA to defend against Napoles or else, and he used the excuse that he was in a recent car accident. The WBA agreed to give him time, but then he signed to fight someone else. He got the royal run-around so you can't say he never even won the title at 140 because he never received the opportunity. And he didn't just beat Perkins and Espinoza at the weight, he also beat Carlos Hernandez, Alfredo Urbina, Adolph Pruitt, L.C. Morgan, Carlos Rios and Giardano Campardi. All top-notch competition. He wasn't #1 contender just for that bad-ass mustache. With Parnassus now backing him, he moved up to 147 and that was it.
     
  5. Dorrian_Grey

    Dorrian_Grey It came to me in a dream Full Member

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    Thanks for setting me straight. It seems in my ignorance I've done a considerable disservice to the great Mantequilla and his, as you illuminate, clearly excellent run at the weight.
     
  6. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    A lot of great fighters flew through it fast ... Mayweather, Duran, Chavez, Whitaker .. all to me were better at 140 than 147 if less accomplished ... Pryor made a career of it even though he could have stayed at 135 but didn't because he wanted the title fight and took it when offered ... Shane was terrific too ...
     
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  7. Dorrian_Grey

    Dorrian_Grey It came to me in a dream Full Member

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    Hate to nitpick but Duran and Sugar Shane never fought at 140, Shane fought at a couple catch-weights above 135 but never officially fought at 140 from what I can see. I agree though that it's usually just used as a leapfrog division to set up fights at 147. Floyd's arguable best performance was at 140 against Gatti. Chavez did spend most of his prime at 140 but I think he has a better argument for GOAT of 130 than 140 honestly. Pryor missed very narrowly on the U.S. Olympic team of 1976 from competing at LW because of a disputed decision against Howard Davis iirc. The only reason he was at 140 was because he knew he never had a chance of getting into the 135 title picture, so instead he took his shot against the ageing great Cervantes. I still wish Duran might have fought Pryor at 140 or that Leonard or Hearns had given him a crack at the titles at 147.
     
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  8. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    NP but Duran fought many times over 135 and at or below 140. If my memory holds he was about 138 for the first DeJesus fight ...
     
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  9. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No worries, Dorrian, I like your passion for our sport. In case I didn't mention it before, welcome aboard.
     
  10. Dorrian_Grey

    Dorrian_Grey It came to me in a dream Full Member

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    Just checked BoxRec a bit closer and it seems between some of his big fights and title defences, Duran would fight at catch-weights and seemed to have a couple fights at 140 but only intermittently between his 135 title run, and presumably was just because he didn't want to cut the extra 5lbs (?). The first De Jesus fight was at 138, Duran weighed 137 1/2, De Jesus weighed in 138 even. It's not listed as a super lightweight bout on BoxRec though. After the second De Jesus fight, Duran takes some 140 fights before his 135 title defence against Takayama, then takes a few more 140 and catch-weight fights between defences afterwards. I'm not exactly sure whether to count this as a run at 140 considering it's only between his major 135 fights and is composed mostly of fringe contenders. It wasn't a title run and The Ring never ranked him at 140, so I don't really know how to treat it for this discussion.
     
  11. Dorrian_Grey

    Dorrian_Grey It came to me in a dream Full Member

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    I'm starting to think Locche has the best resume at 140: LC Morgan, Eddie Perkins, Takeshi Fuji, drawing with Carlos Ortiz, Carlos Hernandez, taking Jaoa Henrique's 0, Alfredo Urbina x2, Adolph Pruitt, and Antonio Cervantes is one helluva list of scalps to have. From the stuff I've seen on him on tape, he comes across excellently as a defensive wizard and master counter-puncher. The only snagging issue I have is that it seems he might have been protected by home judges on one or two occasions. Are all the wins listed above legitimate or does anyone know if a couple are down to home-cooking?
     
  12. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think of Chavez as most dominant at that weight and Pryor as the best champion, but in truth Roberto Duran did have a cup of coffee here or there in the division before deciding to bypass it completely to join the welterweights and I think Duran beats anyone at 140 over 15 rounds all-time.
     
  13. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    Imagine the Chavez from the Taylor fight against the Tzysu from the Judah fight? War.
     
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  14. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Julio Cesar Chavez is probably my favorite fighter to watch ever, so I guess you know how I'm voting.
     
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  15. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    He's one of mine too. One of my favorite fights of his was his fight against Greg Haugen at Azteca stadium. He put a beating on him for the disrespect.
     
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