According to royce gracie, rickson is the best gracie and i have seen rickson fight in pride and that boy is no joke. Once he gets you down, it's just a matter of time until he submits you.
Of course he would say that. Thats his brother and there has been a growing faction between the Carlos and Helio faction. But based on reality, Wallid Ismail managed to submit Royce and Wallid isnt even Carlsons top student (Ze Mario, Busta were ahead). Royler could be argued as good as Rickson technically but as we know, he started getting beaten when people caught up. Speculation was this vulnerabilty in their game coincidently was what prompted Rickson to retire. At the time, Bas, Frye, Saku had issued challenges and it all fell in deaf ears. Weird considering that the Gracies prided themselves in accepting challenges. The prominence of Helios name is mostly attributed due to the headway Rorion created in Southern California in the early 80's. Rorion at the time issed challenges all the time, even against Mike Tyson. He was shrewed enough to capitalie and was really the architect of the UFC. Truthfully, no one has really heard of the name Helio until Rorions started trumpeting his name. I doubt than in Brazil Helio was ever more famous or respected than Carlos. On the otherhand, while often playing second fiddle, Carlson was and is responsible for the wave of Brazilian VT fighters in MMA. Which in turn caused the explosion of BJJ in North America. That alone should merit him the recognition of the most influential Gracie. Nevermind the long list of accomplishments of him as a fighter on his own. He was the man who saved the families face when he avenged Helios lost against Santana.
Most of the family considers Rickson the best. Renzo said that every time he grapples with Rickson, he feels like a blue belt. Relson Gracie, Rickson's older brother, is a grappling legend as well. I've never heard of Relson saying Rickson was better, but he said they haven't grappled since Rickson was around 17 years old. That would have put Relson around 23. The only family member I know of Relson saying is better than himself was Rolls Gracie.
BJJ was more effective in years past than it is in today's mma. Separation and standing the fighters up can make the fights more entertaining for the viewers, but it has changed things for certain types of fighters. There may be better examples, but these are the 2 that immediately springs to my mind. Watch how long in takes for Rickson to get Funaki to the ground: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91a6IrWep1U&feature=related[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vawbp9eMu3E&feature=related[/ame] Then watch the following, and notice how the ref separates the fighters 1min and 37 seconds into the fight: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO7jmnTysZs[/ame] If Rickson and Funaki had fought under similar circumstances, Funaki may have had many more chances to knock Rickson out if he had to close the distance on numerous occasions.
Out of curiosity, have you seen Roger do anything to suggest would beat Rickson? If so, please explain. I'm not calling you crazy or anything. Just want to know.
I was wondering when someone would mention the biggest legend in UFC history. Thought it was a no brainer but I guess not.
The point I was trying to make with that is how long that clinch went on. That's why I posted the Nog and Barnett fight. The ref was breaking that clinch after a few seconds. In the early to mid 90's, if the grappler closed the distance and was able to get in a clinch; no one came in to break the two apart. If Funaki had been a dangerous striker he would gotten fewer chances to show it back then as he would now. Remember how big of a deal that was when Smith got back to his feet against Coleman? It was huge because the ref didn't separate fighters the way they do now. Here's the fight for those of you wanting to reminisce: http://mmavideolinks.to/fighter-videos/337-mark-coleman/5603-mark-coleman-vs-maurice-smith-.html
Yea sorry to derail that point, which is quite true. I just wanted to point out how poor Rickson's overall standup, couting takedowns from standing, was.
I would not put money on it. But the size difference comes into play, also the fact that Roger is basically technically perfect these days he does not make mistakes. Rickson was pushed at times at his best by his contemporaries who came from a much smaller talent pool and were smaller and less good than Roger. Roger has hardly been challenged other than a Takedown and stall policy in years and has submitted pretty much every major grappler in the world. Not saying it would be a destruction or anything but to me Roger is unreal. (not subbed since he was a blue)
this tread is all over the place there is the GREATEST question witch is getting alot of attention from who did the most for the sport angle, the GREATEST fighter ever angle and the GREATEST fighter now angle witch be three potential pointz or 1 if someone thinkz so right now because of his youth and in his prime i would be surprised in any knowledgable POLL if it waznt roger. the guy is REALLY GOOD now if i didnt get so many o them graciez mixed up this would be alot easier but i think the greatest of time is a IMPOSSIBLE question without having all the fightz on tape to look at. i mean back in the day who knowz what kind of fightz when on off the CHARTz in the clubs and back alleyz etc etc. the organized fightz but the fightz not organized by the LEGAL authoritize. growing up i can remember some organized street fightz where one good fighter showed up against one tough lookin fighter that had never fought before. of course nobody knew he hadnt fought before because the guy lied. freakin buddy of mine that practiced kicking and punching a heavy bag and got so good he went around doing these wicked kickz (that were impressive no doubt) tellin everyone he waz a fighter regardless to only beatin up a few of his friendz in half hearted fightz and sure enough the guy fought a wrestler that trained on the side with boxing and went to barz each week to fight bouncerz because he waz on steriodz and the buzz of kicking the shyte out of bouncerz waz way to kewl for him. so of course i knew the both of them as we were all basically 20 and from two of the high schoolz in the area so i won a stupid amount of money on the wrestler dude who completely torn the great looking kicking to bitz in less than a minute. anywayz my point is that the detailz of so many of those fightz that came before the first UFCz started are SO SKETCHY. yes most of the JJ and BJJ tournamentz were not like that but when we are talking greatest im assuming that we are putting a HIGH emphasis on the fightz that took place off the GRID as well as on it. some of the best fightz in brazil happened in the time following one of the graycez winning a JJ tournament and then some local street fighter that waz killin everybody in no rulez or few rulez fightz in the relative area would say he would kill a grayce in a street fight and off course the dudez that heard that would make sure to do their best to get that information directly to one of if not many of the grayciez as fast and with as much FORCE as POSSIBLE. worked the same way 2000 yearz ago, lol. so of course they would challenge each other through the GANG VINE until they would meet some where and usually the graycie would crush the **** out of them in no time thus the gracie legend waz born as they became the first martial artz disipline that took their claim that it worked in street fighting to the streetz to actually test it out. very kewl in fact not that it hadnt been done before i say the first but i only mean in the last 50 yearz and i only mean the first to do it as a meanz to promote their club etc. the part that made this work is when the graciez and the gracie studentz would go out to these street fightz they did not go out in intimadating fashion (most timez lol) as they went out with the pride that their fighting academy STOOD for not just inside it but outside of it as well. this allowed alot of them to blend into the crowd and itz not hard to blend into a brazilian crowd let me tell u. why am i bringin this point up? cuss in the past one o the grandpa grayciez had gone out and dismantled a HUGE guy in the neighboorhood infront of all his buddyz and he went only with his brother and right after they got the beating of their lifetime. so after that all the pracicionerz would go out and their job waz to make sure their waz FAIR PLAY because everyone waz supposed to PAY ATTENTION to what happened in a REAL or basically real street fight. so how the **** are any of us going to know how tough all the guyz that were demolished. im personally coming from a specific angle in saying all this and thatz cuss im PICKING royce freakin gracie. the angle is i pick royce but alot o them older brittle or rip graciez could have been EVEN better than their LEGENDz because alot of timez back in those dayz if one buddy went onto another buddy about this legend of a fighter that met any dude anywhere anytime and had never lost the one buddy that hadnt heard the stroy would just say "OH YEAH sure whatever" . whereas now a dayz if you say that to your buddy they freakin punch the name right into their freakin puter and bring all hiz fightz up on youtube. so with biased towardz alot of the older graciez i gotta say ROYCE not a clear cut pick as a few like rickson (if thatz the lil guy that fought in japan, i alwayz mix the namez up itz brutal) and maybe if roger continuez to get into mma instead of bjj he may surpace him however royce had cameraz and lightz and the PUBLIC on him it waz ****ED RIGHT UP ok not just the PUBLIC of the local neighbourhood, or the township, or the city or country royce had the eyez of the whole young agressive MALE interested world on him and he waz FIGHTING guyz that had been in REAL FIGHTz and been in those FIGHTz in many many different countriez all over the world that is a HUGE STEP up from what the old *******z were doing as far as a UNKNOWN STEP UP dont forget we were not talking weight limitz back then witch i love and still think should be allowed but never enforced lmao at forcin the top fly to fight in the 265lb division yeah so all the gracies were aware that in alot of countries all over the world their were MMA fighterz that were real street fighters or street fighterz that would fight in a club illegally etc opposed to a fantastic MARTIAL ARTIST that has never been beaten in the single style that he specializez in witch waz the reason for the , "yeah but who would win in a little or no rulez fight?" question so the gracies were really aware that they were going into NEW WATERz where they would meet people just like THEM but from other countries and these guyz just may be so much like them they could even be better at the time well after all the neighborhood whisperz had started regarding if the gracies would accept the UFCz challenge that had the community had become aware of from all of the posterz etc that the UFC put up down there the gracies all started talking and u have the PRIDE of the ENTIRE family on the line here ESBerz. they began discussing who should go. dont forget these decisionz get made for alot of unknown reasonz that are sometimez meant not to hurt or ruffle any featherz etc. anywayz itz not the gracie style to say yeah im the strongest of all u ****erz so im going so it waz debated back and forth for a few dayz and there waz nobody that waz comin right out and sayin i dont want to go i think i could get my ass whipped but the lean waz clearly towardz royce so to me that meanz one thing. in the last year etc royce had been kicking everyonez ass for the most part and right there i think that makez him close to one of the greatest right there HOWEVER u throw in the UFC and the fact that yeah i cant remember but i alwayz remember in the first few you had some plumberz or some security guard but that waz usually a one shot thing and then you fought someone REAL good and when royce fought them real good guyz he waz ****in amazing as in spectacular big strong guy grabz lil skinny guy throwz him to ground , jumps on him, all the sudden big strong guy isnt moving, lil skinny guy did a voodoo spell on him and has won the fight yeah i think alot of those early fighterz felt so much pressure that they made some bone head movez they prolly wouldnt of without the nervez of the unknown back then. plus how many guyz really had alot of practice and knew without doubt what would happen if a 450 lb guy bummed rushed you in a cage ? so overall royce handle some pretty intense family and global pressure went into the octogon with the lightz on and the cameraz all rolling and he did EXACTLY what all the gracie grandfatherz had alwayz fought for in the first place and he did it with the same integrity of honour that they had alwayz trained their studentz with he did it a good few timez and then to top it off one of the last time he did it he went out with one of the most savage beatingz of the time that went on and on and royce never stopped trying to win the fight it waz incredable. until ken beat the **** out of him over time so badly by using such superior size and strength and steroid that royce had to make a choice to keep going and he had already kept going so far past what waz thought to be humanly possible that even in loosing he went out with style so for that i would have to give the greatest to royce but in a way all the greatest waz connected and just kinda shifted back and forth and down the linez of generationz occasionally stopping all at once at one individual however i think roger would prime for prime torn roycez head off but those questionz are kinda even more unfair than usually lmao P.S. by the way i waz drinking and had a couple of buddiez over while typin this so i may have made some partz up. sorry i cant remember witch onez youll have to figure that out. i gotta go stop my buddy from ****in up my remote.