Who would Usyk have to beat to be a top 1-5 HW Of All Time?

Agreed

 

He'll never be top 5. Arguably his best wins might be against Fury, who struggled to beat an old injured and inactive 0-0 boxing record fighter from MMA in his 'tune up'. I'm not making that up. This is where we're at.

 

Hmmm, I do discredit his cruiserweight exploite though. If we are gonna include non-HW exploits that then Charles is the GOAT and Archie climbs up an entire level or two of HW strata.

Charles - the greatest LHW, sparkling résumé across his career, beat the best or second best HW fighter and greatest champion of any weight, at a time when there was only one world champion and has a number of title defences and lost to the only undefeated HW champ to ply his whole career as a HW. However, Ezz isn't top 5 at HW or anywhere close and his record as a professional obliterates anything that Usyk has achieved IMO.

I get the logic but unfortunately, the rules or average weights of today's cruiser against the HWs of the 40 - 80's isn't going to make me retrospectively readjust rankings or reanalyse cruiserweight fights arbitrarily. Not saying that you've done this - you are a commendable and well-respected poster - but on this I will stay consistent in that whilst Floyd may demonstrate the greatest combination of talent and boxing skills on film, he pales in comparison to the SRRs, Grebs, Langford's, Armstrong's, Ezz, Pep, Duran etc.

It may not be fair but in an all time ranking of greatness those that have competed at the HW division of their era exclusively and achieved supreme greatness of their era deserve to be ranked higher than those that came after them with lesser HW accomplishments. Usyk's non-HW exploits and the reality of today's sharp practice around weigh in lends great credibility to his H2H prowess and even then, I'd temper it and suggest there is not one great fighter on his HW ledger - not a single one.

 

Archie has one of the best HW records all time. So does Charles for that matter.

I’m not talking about 175 pounder in the LHW this is referring to modern cruisers who for the most part dominated the hw division since its founding. And imo still would rule like Usyk is ruling. If you don’t count it I get it and that’s cool. Just my opinion which means nothing

 

Your opinion is valued, considered and not without merit - I genuinely get it and can logically agree - unfortunately, if I apply it here, then there's too many precedents of rationale and judgment that I have to unwind - it just becomes 'messy', for me at least, and I am only me.

The problem with the cruiserweight situation and rationalisation for me is that this then becomes a scenario where HW size and weight is somewhat artificially inflated by things such as decrease to 12 round fights, steroid abuse, general weight abuse and overeating, unnatural modified food readily available.

Here's another thought - if Usyk counts cos he was a cruiserweight and they weighed the same or even more than many prior champions, then we have arguably never truly had HW champions until we get to the late 1980s/1990s.

Realistically, the HW division has no upper limit - once a man is over the LHW limit, he is a HW according to over a hundred years of historical precedent. Personally, I'd rather a return to 15 round championship fights with same day weigh ins - force the fighters to be in better shape and then you don't have to create random weight classes or try to extrapolate backwards as they play the game from a somewhat even keel.

However, once they arbitrarily make the decisions to discriminate weight classes above LHW and you knowingly compete as a cruiser as opposed to as a HW, I struggle to include your cruiser accomplishments in your HW legacy, even if 50/60 years ago, you would have been a good sized HW all the same.

 

I think a lot of people would be surprised that several top 10 heavyweights only have 10 or so meaningful wins.

So with another 2 wins, retiring undefeated, his clear superiority in this era and H2H ability, you could make a case for the top 5.

 

Usyk is already there. Nobody has fought the excellent competition (skilled, bigger, younger), fight after fight that Usyk has fought and beaten. He should retire now. There is nothing left to prove. His amateur career and the excellent competition he defeated in the World Series of Boxing along with his pro career should satisfy any nonpartisan historian who rates off of resume'. For me, I value video much more than resume' and if Usyk lost his next 5 fights, I'd still rate him as one of the best ever h2h off what he has already shown. I've never seen a HW that I would bet on against Usyk.