Why 87 Tyson beats 66 Ali...

Joe Frazier would have knocked Ruddock out at anytime in his career. Ali would have toyed with Razor who coudn`t box his way out of a wet paper bag.

 

Ruddock had a glass jaw.

 

Now MG, we need bracing challenges to Romantic presumptions of superiority in Ye Olden Daaaaze. Yet you are pretty extreme-Ruddock did have limited boxing skills, was a top contender quality fighter with a great punch. He MIGHt trouble Joe-atleast pre-peak Frazier, as Ringo did, & he could really whack-but I do not think he had the jab/distancing skills to keep Joe away, & it is silly to say Joe had worse than a good beard. He lost post peak to an ATF slugger, most challenging to swarmers. Ali had no such trouble with men of Ruddock's skills & power.

Liston has at least a good shot over Tyson. On the one hand, Tyson does have a substantial speed advantage. Both had some real skills, a few holes: both were front runnering bullies, but WERE tough minded in their primes. OTOH sluggers are favored over swarmers, all other things being nearly equal.

 

Frazier did NOT duck the big punhers, ie: Earnie Shavers. Shavers fought bums for most of his career and his prime came around 1977, when Frazier was past it. He did not duck anyone.

Foreman, as I said, to Holyfield's words, hit HARDER than Tyson, Bowe and Lewis. Ruddock has been KO'd multiple times and had a shaky chin. Atleast Frazier fought Foreman and kept getting up, not many could take George Foreman.

 

Yes, he was not as EFFECTIVE as Tyson but he was a physical monster. He was technically awful yet he STILL destroyed his opponents, his style of slugging is a nightmare for Tyson's style. Complete nightmare. Liston was a very technical fighter, he hit just as hard as George but had better punch technique.

George was the STRONGEST H.W champ too, he pushed his opponents with physical ease.

Foster was not a true H.W, Norton was not a real KO puncher.

Again, you are an idiot. Seriously, I've seen your posts and you lack some real knowledge.

 

Joe Frazier was not a Cruiserweight, in fact against Foreman he was something like 214lbs. Norton was a good BOXER and Foster a good L.H.W.

WHAT? He DESTORYED TOP contenders, including Chuvalo, Frazier (best win), Roman, etc. He WORKED his way to a title shot, and his wins were not against bums like Shavers.

Moorer was eating right hands for a full 10 rounds, his legs gave in. He was landing MORE shots but Foreman landing the HEAVIER shots.

No he wouldn't.

Again, Tyson was GOOD. And technically great, but Foreman was a physical freak of nature. Cus even said Tyson's style sucks against Foreman, what do you think that would do to Tyson's confidence? Tyson's said in an interview that Foreman had freakish power that could take people out with clubbing shots. Tyson would HAVE to fight inside against Foreman and it's a big mitaske, but he'd have no choice. Foreman used arm punches alot but his KO power was VERY real.

Even Holyfield said he hit harder than Lewis, Bowe and Tyson. So his power WAS real.

Liston's fight against Williams prove his heart. And yeah, even Tyson recognizes Liston as his idol (he copied some of his tactics). Liston was beating up grown men when he was a kid while Tyson was beating up old women (he used to mug them).

Liston had a jab that KO'd people, and Chuck Wepner said he hit HARDER than Foreman.

Holyfield credited Foreman as one of the hardest hitters ever, so to have Wepner say an OLD Liston hit HARDER than a prime Foreman is unbelievable. Liston was also a full 15 round fighter.

Your own agenda man, is showing!

 

More excuses

:hi:

 

I disagree.


It would all be about context. Ali is the champ, supremely confident and has the advantage of having proved he can overcome adversity.

If Ali-lite Pinklon Thomas could survive late, then why is there any doubt that Ali can't? And if it goes past the early rounds, the odds must go massively in Ali's favour, no?

I do have trouble keeping an unbiased head on with matters on Ali, but with Tyson it's another guy i love, so i believe i'm thinking in a fairly biased way.

(Ali's lapse against Cooper was just that -a LAPSE, because he wasn't taking his opponent seriously. In hypothetical match ups you would assume that both fighters are as focussed as possible, eh?)

P.s when the **** did this site change? Is McGrain still a mod?

 

First `66` Clay was faster than Tyson. 2) clay had the better chin and a lightning fast jab. 3) Clay had great footwork and tremendous lateral movement always a problem for a short pressure fighter like Tyson. But, one of the biggest reasons why Clay dismantles Tyson is the number he would do on Tyson`s head, long steady psyche job. He`d be in Tyson`s head as soon as they signed the contracts. Tyson, while fast strong and a destructive hitter, was not very strong mentally in a fight. Clay sets the tempo, moving left,then right all the while making good use of his 80`` reach and blinding jab. Tyson needs to get set and becomes increasingly frustrated as he can`t slow Clay down or corner him to do any significant damage. What happens if Tyson gets lucky and lands ?? Lands, on one of THE best chins ever at heavyweight? Simple, Clay grabs him ties him up and mocks him. Tyson would have ZERO and I mean ZERO real estate in Clay`s head. Lots of Tyson victims were beat before they even entered the ring. Tyson sure isn`t outpointing a prime Clay, and can anyone seriously say that Tyson could KO a guy who was never stopped ?( Holmes fight doesn`t count) I keep referencing Clay because Clay was better than Ali... Clay 13 or 14 TKO... You need to remember in a war of attrition, Tyson has been known to wilt, where as Clay/Ali NEVER faltered if a war broke out. And I don`t even need to go into the many, many times that he had to `go to the well` to win ...

 

67 Ali was prime ALI.

 

True, but you get my point... I should have said pre-exile Ali...

 

Pretty much spot on.

 

Prime Ali beats prime Tyson. Fast jabs and right hands from Ali would catch Tyson and would discourage Mike. As the rounds go by Ali would build up a lead and by the 8th or 9th round I think a stoppage would be on the cards, possibly from a flurry of Ali shots or a straight right landing flush would put Mike down. Tysons average stamina would have kicked in by then and Ali would have became even more dangerous as the fight progressed. Tysons footwork would not be quick enough to keep up with Ali's far superior ring movement. Ali had a tremendous chin, it would withstand the few shots that Tyson would possibly land. A prime Ali could box 15 rounds at a high tempo and come out still feeling fresh, Mike Tyson could not. His ferocious power and accurate punching while excellent head movement where he slipped his opponents shots while catching them in return would not work against Ali. Prime Ali simply too fast, smart and mentally too strong for a fighting machine as prime Tyson.

 

I must say this is a pretty good quality discussion .... Well, taking away all the Tyson overeulogy on the few last pages :-(

Most posters hit the nail regarding the huge mental gap between Ali and Tyson as a key issue: Ali proved himself time after time as the king of mind games, with the mental fortitude to win even the most brutal slug wars.

Tyson on the other side, regardless his many victories, wasn't able to overcame adversity and win an uphill battle.

It is not like Tyson has zero chances against Ali; it is that Tyson is not going to be able to bully or intimidate Ali at all and get his usual way. Tyson would need to take pause and think, accepting that he is the underdog this time and consequently will have to absorb a lot of punishment to get to Ali, like a true warrior like Joe Frazier would ... and I seriously doubt Tyson has the guts to pull it out.

 

Great post !!