Why didn't Larry Holmes and Tim Witherspoon rematch?

What’s also interesting if you watch it is that the scoring on the Holmes Witherspoon fight should not have been that close. Witherspoon won maybe 3-4 rounds in the whole fight. He just hurt Holmes and had him wobbly and a thumb blew up his eye. But if you really watch the fight and count the clean punches and count the rounds, the one judge had it right at 117-111 for Holmes. The one who scored it for Witherspoon probably suffered from what I call “comparative round syndrome”.

Holmes in those days used to win almost every round and usually decisively. So if someone did a little better in a round than they were previously doing by comparison, judges would sometimes award them the round although they didn’t really deserve it.

 

Those guys couldn’t carry Larry’s jockstrap

 

Low money, low demand, high risk fight. That's why.

If I was Larry, I wouldn't have either. Witherspoon decides to train like a true professional and comes determined to win (like Larry ALWAYS did) and I think he wins clearly the second time around. Holmes knew Witherspoon was a talented and dangerous fighter.

 

I agree the fight for me is always very overrated regarding the controversy, not helped by the ridiculous biased commentary from Angelo Dundee. This was my scorecard and write up of the fight i did awhile ago.

Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon

1 Holmes
2 Witherspoon
3 Holmes
4 Holmes
5 Holmes
6 Holmes
7 Witherspoon
8 Witherspoon
9 Witherspoon
10 Witherspoon
11 Holmes
12 Holmes

115-113 Holmes

So watching this fight again years later my mind hasn't changed that much, i still felt Larry Holmes was a clear winner. I even gave Witherspoon some of the close debatable rounds 2 and 8.

But anyway the way i see the first 6 rounds was similar to Norton/Holmes. Although Holmes wasn't winning them rounds quite as convincingly as he did in the Norton fight. But he was still doing more punching and more jabbing than Witherspoon, who for me just coasted too much for long periods in those rounds, i gave Witherspoon the 2nd round because i liked his body punching in that round. He landed atleast 5 solid body punches, and Holmes's right hand at the end of the round. Wasn't enough to negate the solid body punching of Witherspoon that round.

But apart from that i couldn't see a round to give to Witherspoon in the first 6 rounds, i remember the 5th round being somewhat competitive. But Holmes in the first 6 rounds was just more active than Witherspoon landing the jab, while Witherspoon was just following Holmes around the ring not punching, and that's why he won those rounds.

The 7th round Witherspoon finally picked up the pace, similar to how Norton did vs Holmes. And he landed some solid shots in the 7th, the only round i felt Witherspoon won convincingly to that point, the 8th round was competitive and i could see an argument for Holmes. But like the 2nd round i liked Witherspoon's body punches in that round.

We all know about the famous 9th round, which is comparable to Norton/Holmes 15th round. Where Norton dominated most of the round, and Holmes comeback towards the end. Amazing round but a round Witherspoon clearly won.

I thought Witherspoon edged the 10th round but not alot happened, apart from Witherspoon's Ali impression.

But for me the last 2 rounds Holmes clearly out punched and did more work than Witherspoon, who for me just coasted the last 2 rounds and did nothing.

It just amazes me that after Witherspoon had his best round of the fight in the 9th round, he virtually did nothing after that round. And was more interested in doing his Ali impression, rather than really taking it to the champion.

I just can't see how you can have Witherspoon winning this fight, he coasted too much for long periods in this fight. You can't lose majority of the first 6 rounds, and then give away the last 2 rounds doing an Ali impression, and expect to take the title away from the champion.

Overall i enjoyed the fight alot, i really enjoyed the tactical aspect of the fight. But i think it's overrated as a controversial decision, i even gave Witherspoon the benefit of the doubt giving him 2 debatable rounds, and Holmes was still a clear winner on my card. So my mind hasn't changed much on this in all honesty.

One last point the commentary was terrible, some of the most biased commentating i've heard in some time. Angelo Dundee didn't call 1 good moment from Holmes, instead he was too busy drooling over Witherspoon who he thought reminded him of Archie Moore, Ken Norton, Sugar Ray Robinson, his words not mine.

And this is my opinion on Holmes's close decisions overall.

Holmes vs Witherspoon 115-113 Holmes
Holmes vs Norton 143-142 Holmes
Holmes vs Williams 143-143 Draw
Holmes vs Spinks 1 Spinks winning
Holmes vs Spinks 2 Holmes winning
Holmes vs Nielsen Holmes winning 116-113
Holmes vs Ferguson Holmes winning
Holmes vs McCall McCall winning by 1 or 2 rounds if i remember rightly
Holmes vs Harris i thought Harris clearly won this.

 

Can you provide a source for this ‘poll of ringsiders’ that ‘they’ did?

 

Google Holmes-Witherspoon Boxrec.

 

LOL.

At the time Holmes fought Spinks:

Page was in the middle of a string that saw him go 1-4 and 2-5 in that period. He lost to David Bey and Holmes fought and stopped Greg’s conqueror.

Thomas had won the WBC title and made one successful defense. Perhaps if he had made a few more there would have been enough demand for a unification. Because two champs aren’t going to unify for chump change, so there has to be enough demand to make the fight worthwhile for both. Bigger question: Thomas was still champ after Larry lost to Spinks … why didn’t Pinklon offer Larry a shot at his title? I guess he ducked Holmes. Instead he sleep-walked his way to losing the title to Trevor Berbick lol. Way to make a case for himself.

Spoon was still picking up the pieces after losing to Pinklon Thomas and had signed to fight Tony Tubbs for the WBA belt, which he won in one of the most boring and slothful heavyweight title fights ever. A fight which all of 6,000 people attended and yawned through. Total purse $175K. Yeah, Tim was a big draw. But Tim won his title and did he offer Holmes, coming off the Spinks loss, a shot? Guess he was ducking Larry. A year later he was getting his bones crushed by James Smith … who Larry defeated.

Mike Weaver, you saw? Coming off a loss to Pinklon in a title shot and was on a skid where he lost 3 of 4.

Funny thing is, you say Larry knew Witherspoon and Weaver would clean his clock. Yet he beat both of them. You say he’s scared of Page, but why wasn’t he scared of Bey, a guy who beat Page?

 

Yeah it says ‘a straw poll’ but it doesn’t say who took the poll or who they polled, no link, not even a ‘7 out of 10’ or ‘11 out of 20’ to tell us how many people they polled.

I’d like to see a list of who they polled and what the scores were.

AP had it a draw. Sports Illustrated didn’t publish a score but describes Holmes winning it deservingly if not impressively. Two of three judges had it for Holmes and the third one had Spoon by a point.

I just want to know when boxing became like Thor vs. Thanos: ‘Well he’s never fought me twice.’

When you have the guy in front of you, beat him. Watch the fight and tell me Tim Witherspoon didn’t give away rounds playing all defense and hardly punching … he bounced around the last two rounds instead of trying to win them, same as he stayed in a turtle shell most of the first half of the fight. Don’t do that and then complain after that you need a second chance — take some chances while you’re in there with him and make the most of the chance you have.

 

That's what Gil Clancy used to say to his fighters, "Don't complain now in dressing room telling me you want him again, you just had him right now"

 

in another era, Thomas win over Witherspoon would have made Thomas “the logical contender” to meet Larry.

But in getting a bogus belt for that Witherspoon win, it meant instead of challenging the real champion, Thomas had to fight who the WBC wanted him to fight.

Thomas first defence was against ex WBA champ Mike Weaver after Weaver was knocked out after the bell by a guy called Tony Anthony. I don’t know how that earned him a shot. Maybe somebody could ask the WBC?

I think Holmes v Thomas was a fight that people wanted to see a bit more than Larry fighting Bonecrusher..but that was a hastily made fight after a unification with Coretzee fell through.

If I remember rightly Thomas was out of the ring a long time after Ken Lucuster hurt pinks eye in sparring. Detached retina I think.


Berbick had quite a good win over David Bey after Larry beat him..so Trevor was in line for a title shot against one of the champions…And Larry had already beaten Berbick out of sight once already …so he got to challenge Thomas and the rest is history

Nobody knows what Tony Tubbs ever did to get a crack at page. Or what Page ever did to fight Coetzee. Or what Dokes ever did to fight weaver. The WBA selection process was awful. Seemed like all they ever wanted to do was keep the title split.

 

There was no way Larry was taking a rematch unless he got big time money for it like super fight money .. I feel Larry absolutely won the fight but outside of his loss to Tyson I never saw Larry as hurt through out a fight as Witherspoon inflicted with those right hands to the body round after round .. that was a very tough fight for an aging champion ... Witherspoon was young but he may have been in the best condition of his life for that fight and went balls to the wall .. it was all about Larry and money ..

 

I rewatched that fight a few times, and what was at work here was what I call “comparison scoring”.
Holmes was a great but unpopular champion who a lot of people wanted to see lose. He also used to win almost every round of most fights.

In “comparison scoring” if a fighter does better than expected against a fighter like that, people often give him the rounds even though if you really look at the round in an unbiased way, Holmes won most of those rounds. I only gave Spoon 4 of the rounds.

 

You may well have a valid point, but that would not alter he fact that a rematch was needed.

 

But Larry was in no rush to fight them either, especially Thomas.

 

Notice he didn't Tim his well deserved rematch. Thomas had his drug issues, and Page had his Don King ones.