Why do Deontay Wilder fans conveniently keep ignoring fights where his power was exposed?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Luis Fernando, Nov 20, 2018.


  1. PaddyGarcia

    PaddyGarcia Trivial Annoyance Gold Medalist Full Member

    16,188
    13,230
    Feb 13, 2014
    Who do you think hits harder?
     
  2. KenBoon

    KenBoon The Marquess of Queensbury's proof reader Full Member

    102
    76
    Aug 30, 2018
    We'll find out on the weekend won't we. Fury's as slippery as a bag of eels and so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

    Fury on points!
     
  3. MURK20

    MURK20 Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,487
    1,286
    Sep 26, 2008
    I see why I left the General section years ago. It's a loony bin loaded with self deception. Which heavyweights in the last 10 year possessed the power of Wilder? You all should be excited that we get to witness a massive puncher of this caliber.
     
  4. Ukansodoff

    Ukansodoff Deontay plz stop ducking Joshua. Thank you. Full Member

    10,980
    6,711
    Aug 7, 2010
    Deonkey Wilder fans seem to conveniently forget many things about Wilder, his words, his managers words and his resume. But then they are adamant that Ortiz was way better than Wlad or Povetkin. So not only are they in denial they are moronic.
     
  5. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,120
    1,273
    Aug 23, 2017
    What evidence suggests that Wilder's punching power has been separated at the very top of boxing, from the punching power of any other boxer?

    You're asking me an irrelevant question! Whether someone hits harder or doesn't hit harder than Wilder, doesn't automatically prove Wilder's power has been separated at the very top over everybody else's by default.

    It's possible nobody hits harder than Wilder. But likewise, it's also possible Wilder isn't the hardest puncher either. Since, it's entirely possible Wilder's power is equal or on the same level as many other boxers, without being any greater or special.

    Having stated that, a case / an argument can be made that Anthony Joshua's power has been proven to be better. Against two common opponents both share in Eric Molina and Jason Gavern, Joshua knocked both of them out in fewer rounds and with fewer punches. Also, Joshua has stopped more opponents ranked in the top 10 than Wilder has, in fewer fights to boot. Joshua has also stopped more previously undefeated OR UN-KO'ed opponents than Wilder.

    A case and an argument can also be made, that Dillian Whyte has roughly the same level of power as any of those guys too.
     
    SmackDaBum likes this.
  6. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,120
    1,273
    Aug 23, 2017

    I'm not denying the fact that Wilder is a power puncher and a knockout artist. Rather, I'm questioning the narrative, claim and idea that Wilder has somehow indisputably separated his punching power at the very top of boxing, above every other boxer's punching power and from the rest of the world overall.

    I'm yet to see convincing evidence that Wilder's punching power deserves to be rated that highly. Since his power is not more proven than others against actual RELEVANT opposition (such as top ranked opponents, undefeated / previously UN-KO'ed opponents and durable opponents who have faced other power punchers without getting KO'ed).

    One could also say that just because Wilder has more knockouts than Johann Duhaupas, it doesn't NECESSARILY mean that Wilder is a bigger puncher than Johann Duhaupas if I follow your reasoning. Since according to you, other boxers disposing the likes of Johann Duhaupas quicker, won't prove they are bigger punchers than Wilder.
     
  7. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,120
    1,273
    Aug 23, 2017
  8. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,120
    1,273
    Aug 23, 2017

    This thread is a counter - response to those grossly overrating Wilder's punching power and to those who are giving Wilder's power more credit than what it deserves. And as long as those people exist who overrate Wilder's punching power beyond what it deserves and beyond what it has proven, I'll continue creating such threads and be critical of Wilder's power.

    Wilder hasn't knocked out EVERY opponent LEGITIMATELY. He received plenty of premature and nonsensical stoppages that shouldn't be counted as knockouts. Such as against Duhaupas where Duhaupas was literally making Wilder miss his last 2 punches before the referee stepped in randomly and prematurely stopped that fight. In that fight, Wilder could not even drop, much less KO Duhaupas. Irrespective of what it states on Boxrec or Wikipedia.

    Not only that, but Wilder has a habit of getting away with illegal rabbit punches and strikes landing with the forearm, wrists and etc. They cause extra damage on his opponents, and make them vulnerable later on to knockouts with legitimate and clean punches. that's not evidence of 'great' power. Relying on illegal tactics that doesn't even involve clean punching to set opponents up for knockouts or even outright KO'ing opponents with those tactics, is not evidence of REAL punching power in boxing.

    If we also exclude those stoppage wins of Wilder where he blatantly used illegal tactics such as rabbit punches, forearm strikes, wrist strikes to achieve those stoppages. Then the number of LEGITIMATE knockouts he has, is even lesser.

    You seem to be a typical Boxrec warrior who is obsessed with simple numbers and statistics. If that's the case, then how about we look at more numbers, rather than just merely looking at a superficial and an overly simplistic stat such as knockout percentage?

    Truth isn't just in someone's knockout percentage. Since you use the word 'fallacy' very often, you should be aware that relying on a single superficial stat such as knockout percentage to judge a boxer's punching power is TOTALLY fallacious. How about other deeper numbers? Such as the number of previously unbeaten and / or UN-KO'ed opponents Wilder has KO'ed, relative to other heavyweights? How about the number of opponents Wilder has KO'ed with proven durability based on them not getting knocked out by other known power punchers, relative to other heavyweights? How about the number of top 10 ranked opponents Wilder has KO'ed, relative to other heavyweights? How about the ranking range of his average knockout victim, relative to other heavyweights?

    You see, when we do a deeper study, investigation and analysis on Wilder's record, that goes deeper than mere superficial stats like "knockout rate / percentage", we get to see evidence of Wilder's power not being proven as the very best or being separated at the top from the rest.

    Even if he gets the KO's, for someone who is supposed to be the undisputed most powerful puncher with the best one punch power, if he is taking the most number of rounds and the most number of punches to KO very suspect chinned opponents like Eric Molina, it still exposes his power to be lacking and disqualifies him from deserving the title of being the most powerful puncher. The fact that he gets the knockouts in the end, is totally irrelevant because he is not only EXPECTED to KO those opponents, but to do so with FAR FEWER punches and with FAR MORE EASE!

    Your other examples are irrelevant. Since I don't recall anybody rating Alexander Povetkin as the most powerful puncher as Wilder is rated. Whilst Wladimir Klitshcko is retired, so he doesn't count as a current boxer.

    Let me know when people start claiming Povetkin is the most powerful puncher in boxing, as they do with Wilder. Then I'll also be critical of Povetkin too. In fact, I've already been very critical of Povetkin's power in his last 3 or 4 fights.

    As for whether Fury is a bigger puncher than Povetkin, I wouldn't doubt it for even a SECOND! Fury is naturally much bigger and stronger. Fury's most powerful punch is ARGUABLY more powerful than any punch Povetkin can deliver at his best potential. Fury also stopped not one, but two guys Povetkin couldn't (Firtha and Christian Hammer). So there isn't really any evidence Povetkin NECESSARILY hits harder than Fury. So that's an EXTREMELY horrible example you've just used.
     
    Entaowed and SmackDaBum like this.
  9. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

    7,005
    2,071
    Apr 8, 2013
    I've only seen one other poster who is able to put so much raw, irrational blather together, and without any of it carrying any modicum of rationality. And at least the poster I'm thinking of is well intentioned enough. You are just demented.

    Anyway, your post is again almost entirely drivel that is barely worth responding to. The arguments you make can be used to tear any boxers ko rate down. You don't like my examples? So be it, name me a fighter you think hits harder than Wilder, and I will use your silly, specious reasoning to rip his record to shreds.

    The fact remains, Wilder has an unprecedented KO record. And, I may add, I'm not particularly a Wilder "fan", I'm very much rooting for Fury to win on Saturday. And I have no qualms saying he has the #3 in resume behind AJ and Fury in the division. But to deny his power is lunacy. But, coming from the guy who set the forum record for contradicting yourself, what can I expect.
     
    PaddyGarcia, LANCE99 and 305th like this.
  10. 305th

    305th Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,941
    3,828
    Apr 28, 2018
    Timestamped.

    Inb4 - "What would Haye know", as they sit there in their underpants and Manchester United football shirt.

    This content is protected

    This content is protected
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  11. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    40,556
    9,825
    Mar 7, 2012
    Fighters are both overrated and underrated all of the time.

    It's tough to say for sure who's the hardest hitting HW. But Wilder is clearly up there. Again, the reason he doesn't have more clear, one punch knockouts is due to his technique and his lack of boxing skills.

    You can't knock someone out if you can't land the perfect shot. It's as simple as that. Wilder has great speed and power, but he struggles to land perfect shots like the one he landed on Szpilka due to him being off balance. He needs space. He needs leverage and perfect timing.

    If he'd landed the perfect shot on Duhaupas, I'm sure he'd have taken him out. But as we saw, he was actually getting outboxed at times. So you have to look at the fights where he's landed clean and the effect it's had on his opponents. You can't just look at statistics.

    Yes, you can't just look at who has beaten Duhaupas earlier, it's not as simple as that. If Wilder knocks Fury out, it doesn't automatically mean that he punches harder than Wlad did because Wlad lost to Fury.

    I can understand that hardcore fans of Wilder's have annoyed you. But some of your reasoning is silly. You can clearly see that he has huge power.
     
    Luis Fernando and LANCE99 like this.
  12. LANCE99

    LANCE99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,556
    6,350
    Mar 11, 2016
    Really? This is your beef? :duh
     
  13. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    40,556
    9,825
    Mar 7, 2012
    Fury isn't a puncher in the division.

    Most of his knockouts are accumulative TKO's.

    It doesn't matter if he stopped guys who Povetkin couldn't. You have to watch all of the fights and put things into context. Again, you're just quoting stats. Most people would rate Povetkin as the bigger puncher of the two.

    How many times have you seen Fury knock someone out like Povetkin did against Price?
     
  14. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

    78,030
    126,610
    Jul 21, 2009
    Owen ''What the ****ing Heck'' Beck

    http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/20088

    Interviewer: ''Everyone talks about Wilder's big punch and his KO ratio 33 fights, 33 KOs. Does he really hit that hard?''

    Owen Beck: ''He doesn't.

    ''You heard me say he hits like a girl.''

    ''He's dirty''

    ''He couldn't knock me out''

    ''Monte Barrett hits harder than Wilder''

    Interviewer: ''There's a big debate as to whether Wilder's power is overrated.''

    OB: ''I don't respect his power. I've got young amateurs in my gym who hit harder than him. I've got 152lb fighter in my gym who hits harder than Deontay and this kid only has 3 amateur fights.''

    ''I'm not going to try and take too much away him or anything but I don't respect his power.''

    ''If you're over 200lbs you can punch. But like I said, I didn't see nothing from Wilder that I would respect''
     
  15. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

    238,077
    228,446
    Nov 23, 2013
    Since I tend to get annoyed by bitter old **** talking journeymen. Let me see if I can invalidate his claims.:D Well in Deontay's defense, Beck fought a hyper, and I mean incredibly hyper cautious fight, rolled with and slipped the majority of Wilder's wild uncoordinated punches, all of which were basically probing jabs or looping shots that were rolled with, so maybe Beck didn't feel the full blunt force impact of any of Wilder's shots. That being said...... he drops Beck in the first round, by what appeared to be a grazing punch that didn't land all that clean on Beck, then he drops Beck in the second round, by what appeared to be a weak jab that didn't land all that clean on Beck, then he drops Beck in the third round twice, with what appeared to be a partially slipped straight right that didn't land all that clean on Beck, and a partially slipped cuffing hook that didn't land all that clean on Beck. Now keep in mind, this is a Beck whose main goal was to do everything in his power to avoid being punched clean, which he did. So in a way, he's right, the shots Wilder's landed on him were pathetic partially blocked girl shots, which means Beck was dropped by 4 partially blocked girl shots, so I guess that means Beck is a real b**** then right?:sisi1 Which is pretty obvious, since he's being a little catty bitter Betty on his period about his loss. So the evidence point to the contrary, which paints Beck as a liar, its that either or we have another a dive taker on our hands.
    This content is protected
     
    Serge likes this.