Why Does This Forum Love Sonny Liston

I will put it to a poll.

 

Are you talking about the guy who won his first twelve round decision in his forties (via robbery)? Foreman in his forties resembled a fringe contender, not an ATG.

 

Which is dumb Liston was a mid tier champ at best Wlad was a long reigning champ who has way more good wins then Liston

 

Liston's defense was very underrated. Even Ali himself remarked on how difficult Liston was to hit at times. He described Liston as a scientific fighter, praised him for having a high ring IQ and called him the best heavyweight ever, second only to himself.

 

Absolutely… Liston had a nostalgic “legendary” era attached to the Ali story.., he was the first “villain” and has to be a “great” to make Ali “great” just like Foreman and Norton he has been built up disproportionately IMO. Liston beat Floyd Patterson, Zora Folley and (injured) Eddie Machen he was almost always bigger, he is slow and his skills are not enough to make up for being small today because part of his “style” was being big… I’d pick James Toney to beat him. I can think of very few decent HW champs / belt holders / good contenders who couldn’t do that, I’d pick Gerry Cooney to beat that lot… I’d even say pick Jimmy Bivins to probably.

 

I wonder why he said all of that? Do you take Holmes seriously when he says Norton would’ve beat Mike Tyson?

 

Also, I doubt fat 90s Foreman's BMI was much of an improvement on Tyson's. Despite having better stamina than the littler 70s George.

 

Also talking size… Foreman showed up for Qawi at 235lbs with a saggy chest and a soft midsection… I’m not sure where the natural 230lber at 18 narrative is supported anywhere? If you’re soft you are holding extra “useless” weight… Tyson was visibly a specimen at his age now vs Paul he was 228lbs and more lean than George ever was holding onto a bunch of mass PED’s? Yes probably… just like George in the 80s-90s just that Tyson we can see as a teenager looking like an alien.

 

The point was that Foremans cardio did not suck. If the man weighing 20 to 30 pounds more being nearly a quarter century older could go the distance clearly his cardio did not suck and never sucked. He didn't need decisions before his comebacks Liston who only had 1 12 round decision didn't need them either. The reason Liston won his and Foreman didn't is Liston got Machen not Jimmy Young who very few HWs who've ever lived could beat at 12. And Foreman contested the whole fight. Look how Ron Lyle did against Jimmy.

To an extent when Foreman came back from the Schulz fight 18 months later what you're saying is true. Foremans freakish power was mostly gone just like Louis's went up in smoke in the late 40s during a long layoff. Foreman was now relying on his freakish durability. Depends what you mean by fringe contender he probably wasn't the best HW but Briggs who most agree didn't beat Foreman actually gave Lennox a scare. But fringe contender or not Foreman was such a terrible matchup for Tyson he'd have beaten him anyway. Same way Foreman in 2002 was confident he could beat David Tua in particular. He was an awful no good matchup for Tyson even without the power mainly because if Tyson didn't knock Foreman down right away his cardio was so terrible he couldn't outpoint George.

Up to the Schulz fight Foreman was not a fringe contender he was an unusual blend of power, durability and skill.

 

What matters is what he weighed when he was at his best. Not imaginary what-if versions from alternate universes.

The version who won the title was 217.5. If we want to take the rest of Foreman's allegedly mayfly-length prime before he became "mentally shot" and his losses don't count anymore, we get 224 and 220. Average of the 3 fights is 220.5. That's peak 70s Foreman in all his dehydrated glory.

History does not contain any bigger, stronger, improved versions unless somebody wants to start reevaluating post-Ali 70s Foreman. Which we know will not happen.

 

Not saying that Liston didn't have power or he wasn't a hard hitter. He was. His punch likely would be effective vs modern sized heavies. But come on, he's not blowing Tyson out of the water when it comes to punching power. People criticize Marciano and to a lesser extent, Dempsey, because they'll say that their punching power was never tested against modern sized heavies or that the modern sized heavies they fought, sucked. But Liston suffers from this same criticism as his best opponents could make cruiserweight or light heavyweight today (especially with day before weigh ins). Machen, Folley, Patterson could boil down to light heavyweight with day before weigh ins and be 190 something the next night. At best, with same day weigh ins, they'd be cruisers.

But the guys that Tyson beat and knocked out in the 80s and 90s would fit right in, size wise, with today's heavies.

Truth be told, if Bivol or Beterbiev were fighting in the late 50s, early 60s, they'd likely have been Liston opponents, as they'd be 185-195 pound heavies with same day weigh ins.

 

The biggest misunderstanding of cardio here is mentality and how cool you can stay. Foreman had bad stamina probably not because he didn’t run enough, hit the bag enough etc that’s the easy part and at a certain point it’s redundant and maintenance. The key is your mind, how you do things, technique etc his Achilles heel was his tension, anxiety and impatience to get the job done he had better stamina as an old man because he relaxed… Toney eventually just sparred, that’s mental endurance, shadow boxing is cardio if you do it right but not the same workout despite being mechanically identical… sparring will give you better “stamina” BECAUSE your tense, your minds at work, you’re taking shots etc you learn to relax and be confident in your ability… Toney could go all day with Jirov because he was in his element.

 

What’s also interesting… a lot of people defend classic fighters not needing strength or size but when it comes to Foreman / Liston neither can possibly be weaker then AJ… no, no he is “functionally” strong for the sake of cope, maybe an unconscious realisation that it was there ace then and not now.

 

He trained harder in the 90s, as well.

https://www.muscleandfitness.com/at.../george-foreman-talks-training-and-comebacks/

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...uilt-up-his-endurance-in-his-comeback.719744/

Plus, y'know, not dehydrating.

 

Good post IMOJL.