Why is there so much mystery about Lewiston when Sonny Liston tells exactly what happened?

Liston is full of it. He laid down for Ali in Lewiston and Ali knew thats why he was over him motioning for him to get up. It was a dive George Foreman said Liston had him backing up in sparring.

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Yes because backing up a teenager in sparring is any indicator of being ready to beat a prime Muhammad Ali. Ali didn’t need a fix, but I do believe it was one.

 

This.

I'll add that the police used to break nightsticks over Listons head and not only did they not stop him, he still put them on the ground or in the hospital. Cleveland Williams broke his jaw and Liston didn't go down.

Ali was never known for his power let alone one punch knock out power.

 

Did Liston ever call Ali, Ali? I thought he always said Clay when referring to him?

 

When the teenager is George Foreman it is. Glad you agree.

 

George Foreman was born in 1949. He would have been sixteen years old when Ali fought Liston in Lewiston. He didn't spar with Sonny until 1967 which would have made sense.

 

I agree. I don’t even think the knock down was legitimate. It was an extreme outlier in both Ali and Liston’s careers.

 

An outlier is a great way of phrasing it.

Liston was only ever off his feet one other time against Martin in his second to last fight.

 

For mine the initial KD was legit.

If one believes Liston’s attempts to rise were poor acting (and it did appear as such), conversely, it would’ve been difficult for Liston to have staged the KD, he got hit good and then went down, seamlessly and naturally.

Note Sonny’s lead left foot, upon which all goes weight rests. It is arched upon impact - but immediately after impact, that foot leaves the canvas.

I’m glad that in recent times, there is more highlighting of Ali’s contribution to the chaos.

Contrary for Ali to scream at Liston to get up but not back away sufficiently at any time to allow Liston to do so.

Contrary also for Ali to raise his arms and begin tight victory laps, - BEFORE 10 seconds had expired since Liston hit the canvas.

Liston’s fall back down was exactly synced with Ali coming back around to buzz nearby Liston - so not unreasonable to believe that Liston deliberately fell back down lest he be on the way back up.

Dundee noted that while Liston was fearless, he could be put off by crazy people - fair to say Ali knew how to play it insane.

Some vision which might be of interest given the subject at hand.

Liston touching lightly on the controversy in Maine: -

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Liston describing Ali standing over him and it’s impact on his own actions: -

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ug5L3uHaMdo?feature=share

Finally, a very angry Liston taking the rematch including the delay caused by Ali’s hernia. Liston looks fit, determined and ready to go

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It's Oscar winning worthy, a Golden Globe at least.

 

IMHO it foreshadowed the "No Mas" fight. All Sonny was going to get for his efforts was embarrassment. Better to take your money and go home.

 

Swag I think the knockdown was legit, I think it was a quick, snapping punch that caught Sonny by surprise (it was a punch only a freak of nature like Ali could throw, off his toes) and in a vulnerable area (around the temple). Everything after that was a mess and smelled, even if as I surmised earlier Sonny just went "Frick this merde, I'm done."

 

Like the No Mas fight.

 

Soon Roger Stone will Produce and Direct a motion picture for the silver screen called CSL (Charles Sonny Liston). It will detail how the CIA had something to do with Liston's ring assassination on May 25 1965, a day that will live in boxing infamy. The main culprit Muhammad Ali, was not the lone gunman with his Phantom Punch, it could have been many actors such as the Terrell's, the William's even the Texas State Trooper that took care of the Big Cat in Nov 1964. A good conspiracy movie to attend, but don't take your date to it, it will kill a romance.

 

This is a little off topic, but an interesting piece on Liston/Ali:

Sonny was simply not ready for a lightning fast fighter like Ali. Such was his power, Sonny had fought only 13 minutes and seven seconds in the previous 4 years, and 4 minutes and 15 seconds in the past 19 months, and he expected Ali to wither like the others. He did not train properly, due in part to injury, sparred intermittently and consumed hot dogs, popcorn and beer. He had badly underestimated Ali and his speed, and the injury added to age and lack of conditioning doomed the Big Bear.

Worse than age, Sonny was suffering a severe shoulder injury in his left shoulder and a reoccuring problem with his left knee

Liston had hurt his knee before the second Patterson fight, severely enough that Commission doctors approved a medical postponement not once, but twice, in the fight to allow Liston’s knee to heal.

Sonny Liston vs. Floyd Patterson (2nd meeting)

Unfortunately, Liston still had a sore knee 7 months later when he faced Ali - and this time it was a different Commission, one determined to force Liston to fight, hurt or not.

Liston, armed with doctors and medical records, asked for a postponement to let his left knee and left shoulder heal.

The Commission refused, despite voluminous evidence, and forced Liston to fight hurt.

When you figure in that Sonny, a left hander fighting orthodox, depended on his jab to set up everything else he did, offensively and defensively, he was a shell of what he should have been.

The fight began with Ali exhibiting the incredible speed and movement he was becoming famous for, and Ali was dominating the fight until he got something in his eye in the 4th round. His corner had to push him out for the 5th round, when he complained he could not see. But he simply moved and avoided Liston until his eyes cleared, and that was the beginning of the end.

Between the 6th and 7th rounds, Sonny, unable to lift and use his left arm, retired on his stool.

How bad were Sonny’s injuries?

Severe.

It is certain that Sonny had suffered a torn biceps muscle in his left shoulder, and a full thickness rotator cuff tear. His purse had been ordered seized following the loss to Ali in the first fight, and the Miami and Florida Boxing Commission did not officially release it until it had accepted a medical verification of the injury.

The Boxing Commission hired a team of 8 doctors to bring them evidence Sonny could have continued to fight. Instead, those Commission Doctors determined that because of the injury, Liston was unable to answer the bell for the seventh round in the fight at Convention Hall.

Those Doctors, hired to find Sonny could have continued, determined that in fact, he could not:

“because of the injury, Liston was unable to answer the bell for the seventh round in the fight at Convention Hall.”


(Liston’s doctors felt he never should have fought - which is why they supported his request for a medical postponement)

Jack Nilon, Liston's adviser, had said that Sonny injured the arm during training. The injury had not been disclosed, although Liston took time off from training prior to the fight.

People who push the crap story that Sonny threw the first fight conveniently forget that Liston had formally, threw his attorney, supported by his doctors, sought a postponement of the fight for several months after the injury in training camp, to let the injuries heal, which the Florida Commission denied. Commission doctors found Liston evidently worsened his shoulder injury dramatically during the fight. (Liston said it was partially torn before the fight, and tore completely in the first round)

After the fight, the Florida Commission seized Liston’s purse, and demanded a team of doctors of their own choosing examine Sonny, in order to justify their permanent seizure, claiming he could have kept fighting.

Their own team of doctor’s diagnosed injuries so severe no one could have kept fighting.

Dr. Alexander Robbins, chief physician for the Miami Beach Boxing Commission, diagnosed Liston’s injury as:

“a torn tendon in his left shoulder.”


Only a very few writers covered any of this, one of them, Tex Maule, writing for Sports Illustrated said that Liston's shoulder injury was serious, citing first Liston's inability to lift his arm:

“There is no doubt that Liston's arm was damaged. In the sixth round, he carried it at belt level so that it was of no help in warding off the right crosses with which Clay probed at the cut under his left eye."


Maule also got access to medical records:

“A team of eight doctors inspected Liston's arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed that it was too badly damaged for Liston to continue fighting. The torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the biceps, swelling and numbing the arm.”


What other major publications or media covered this story?

NONE.

Instead, they published claims that Sonny quit because he was paid off, or was told to, despite their being no proof of either, and a records vault full of medical records showing he was badly injured, which worsened during the fight.

In the real world, not haterville, Liston went to his Denver home after the fight, then went to Philadelphia for consultation with an orthopedic surgeon. The full extent of his incapacitation, and any treatment he received for it, will never be known.

Dr. Richard C. Bennett of Detroit, who was been the personal physician of Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Robinson, and who was a fight doctor of impecable reputation said that:

“the injury, caused by a sudden overstrain, was akin to severe tennis elbow. The pain alone would have been disabling.”


In addition to the injury, Liston may have been as old as 42 by the Ali fights, and way past his prime. While Sonny retained his fearsome strength - in middle age, when sparring with George Foreman, he became the only man to ever force George backwards! - he has lost his foot and hand speed. People who only saw Liston against Ali do not realize how quick he was in his earlier years.

Sonny did not know when he was born, literally, but boxing historians later managed to ascertain that he probably was born far earlier than he had thought or listed on his commission licenses, with one historian figuring from family tales that Sonny might have been born as early as 1919, or even earlier.

Manny Steward said Sonny was just too old for a fast fighter like Ali:

“No the match-up came it was just perfect timing for one, terrible timing for another guy who had slipped past his prime—but if they had fought, in like say ’58 or ’59, a prime Sonny Liston and a prime I would still say Cassius Clay or whatever—I don’t know. I don’t know. Sonny at that stage was just such a really powerful wrecking machine and I remember the fights he had with Cleveland Williams—oh my God. I don’t know, Sonny might have won if they would have fought at that time.


Heavyweight History With Emanuel Steward: Part 3 Of 3 • East Side Boxing • News Archives

The Second Ali vs. Liston fight

Most historians agree that the second Liston vs Ali fight was a huge mess, and the officiating a disaster. That said, some also said that Liston was down, unable to defend himself, and had the fight continued, Sonny would have taken a serious beating.

Others think he could have continued, but thanks to horrible officiating, the worst in heavyweight history, from Joe Walcott, Sonny was denied the chance.

Fate worked against Sonny - 3 days before the fight, Ali suffered an incarcerated inguinal hernia, which forced a six month postponement in the fight.

Ali underwent immediate surgery at Boston City Hospital:

"It was such a marvelously developed stomach, I hated to slice it up," said one of the attending physicians.


Sonny had whipped himself into great shape for this fight, but at least 37, (and probably a lot older) he couldn’t hold his conditioning when the fight was delayed.

The fight was rescheduled for May 25, 1965. That delay ruined completely Liston’s timing, and in addition, forced him to go back into training after the New Year, and strained his chronically injured left shoulder.

Sonny also had a chronic left knee problem stemming from an injury - which required fight postponement - of his last fight before Ali I.

Sonny was left unable to run because of his knee swelling in the second camp, and unable to spar regularly due to his shoulder.

He had been in the best shape of his career before the postponement, having nursed his knee and shoulder carefully through training camp - but a second training camp 3 months later was simply beyond his physical ability.

The fight was rescheduled

Rumors of Sonny’s alleged ties to organized crime forced the fight out of Boston. Governor John H. Reed of Maine, when aboslutlely NO proof was produced of any such criminal ties, offered to host the fight in Lewiston, Maine, a small town of about 41,000, 140 miles north of Boston.

The venue selected was St. Dominic's Hall, a junior hockey rink. Lewiston was the smallest city to host a heavyweight title bout since Jack Dempsey fought Tommy Gibbons in Shelby, Montana (population 3,000) in 1923. It remains the only heavyweight title fight held in the state of Maine.

So the fight was a mess from the start, which has contributed to the conspiracy theories

Joe Walcott’s terrible officiating took away any chance Sonny had

The fight started slowly, with Liston advancing, using his reach and jab to try to control the distance. But as he stepped forward, as he often did, to reinforce his jab, Sonny literally walked into a follow up right. Ali countered into the forward moving Liston with a lightening fast counter right just as Liston stepped forward into it, and that was all she wrote.