It was a number of things I'll number in order of importance: 1) D'Amato's death 2) Jim Jacobs' Death 3) Kevin Rooney's firing These 3 events opened the door for Don King to swoop in and Tyson was never the same after that. Is it King's fault that Tyson couldn't handle his money? No. Is it King's fault that Tyson was a street kid at heart and would inevitably do what street kids sometimes do when they get a LOT of money in a short period of time? No, but it doesn't change the fact that Tyson was never as focused on boxing as when he had the 3 guys mentioned above directing his career. We've debated this subject countless times on ESB and many people believe that he was still at his peak against Ruddock and I completely disagree. His peak lasted from '87-'88 and his best win was against Tucker if you take into consideration the ability of the opponent. Holmes' timing was off and Spinks was a marginal HW at best.
Good post. Funny, now one of Tyson's best assets is "overrated" all of a sudden? :bart This is a first and it didn't take too long for some resident Tyson haters to hop on this band wagon. Unbelievable.
MagnaNassaki said it, and i see where he's coming from. "He was hit cleanly twice" is an exaggeration. Perhaps you can remember two HARD punches he was hit with cleanly.
Tyson was short and only moved forward, yet he was never knocked down or hurt badly during his first title run. His defense was excellent and a big part of why fighters went into a shell or tried to hold the entire fight, they couldnt hit him. Its not an exxageration, its the truth, Tyson was rarely hit cleanly or stopped in his tracks. Compare that to how he was hit against Douglas, Ruddock, Holyfield, etc, theres a monumental difference.
Theres a couple guys on here that think if they use multiple screenames they'll somehow make a senseless point. :-(
Regardless of what you think, he was never cut, never knocked down, never hurt badly etc. You dont have to put up a bunch of youtube videos of an opponent connecting with a jab or a glancing power shot. Your missing the point. He sparred with no headgear to keep his defense tight. He was an offensive only fighter who moved forward. His defense was awesome.
I think you missed the point when MagnaNassaki said he had "overrated defense", which he went on to explain. I understood his post as saying Tyson's style of defense require a hell of a lot of youth and athleticism to keep the head movement consistently effective, and even then punches can get through. It was energy-consuming to unsustainable degree. It was a point about effectiveness and longevity. I broadly agree with it. I also think Tyson's use of head movement waned as the fights wore on, even in his prime. That's just an observation. Your assertion that Tyson only got hit cleanly twice in his first title run is just wrong. Perhaps that's the kind of "overrating" Magna was refering to. (And, no, I don't want to pull videos of youtube, and you seem to know you were exaggerating anyway.) His defense was good. And his attack was awesome. Attack is the best form of defense anyway, so I guess that makes his defense awesome.
I completely agree with you but Bruno did rock him twice in their first fight...no? Oops, you were talking about earlier in his career up to the Berbick fight...sorry.
Meant under Rooney, should have clarified that, which I did in an earlier post. Here's Rooneys comments about that. Mike's loss to Buster Douglas. Many people were saddened to see him on the canvas struggling to grab his mouthpiece. What did you think of that fight? I wasn't saddened because I saw it coming. But, I was saddened when I saw Mike's next fight after Spinks, eight months later. He fought Frank Bruno (their first fight) and his skills had already become diminished. I could tell he wasn't training like he should. If Bruno could fight, he would have knocked Mike out that night. Bruno landed a punch that buckled Mike, but Bruno didn't know what to do after that! When I saw that, I knew it wouldn't be long before he got knocked out. For me, that was sad... to see Mike's skills start to unravel. But for Douglas, the minute I saw Mike walk into the ring, I knew he wasn't in shape. I saw the fat. He wasn't ripped. I just KNEW he was partying it up in Japan before that fight. They really like to party over there in Japan. Believe me! I found that out when we went over to Japan the year before to fight (Tony) Tubbs. But, we had to refrain until AFTER the fight. It was a long plane ride over there, something like 14 hours. When we got there, Mike slept for a while and then I woke him up for a 3 mile run. Then, he would go to the gym and he worked out hard. There was no fooling around before the Tubbs fight! Two weeks before the Douglas fight, I heard Mike weighed 250 and had to take off 30 pounds. So, he dehydrated and starved himself. In the first few rounds, Douglas came out throwing a few jabs and you could see that he was nervous. But, he was throwing punches and Mike wasn't! If I had been in Mike's corner that night, I would have said: 'Look Mike, you came all the way over here and all you did was party. You've only got 3 or 4 rounds in you and you better throw EVERYTHING you've got. If you don't knock him out in that time, I'm throwing in the towel.' If Mike had done that, he could have knocked Douglas out. But, he didn't. He let a scared fighter get brave. Once you do that, you've got problems. Brave fighters don't go back to being scared. So, as the rounds went on... Douglas got confident! And when Douglas got knocked on his ass, he punched the canvas and got up. The next round, he beat the hell out of Mike... and then stopped him.
Disagree completely. He had a style that was easier to pick off at distance than any other style. Tyson fought a lot of solid mobile counterpunching boxers, and he was rarely hit clean. That says a lot and was the overiding point. I disagree with the rest of what you wrote too, his defensive moves, especially as his timing improved, became more subtle and used less energy than you seem to think. Certainly less than taking sustained punishment, which does take a lot more out of a fighter a lot quicker. Tyson like all punchers just diminished his technique and relied more on his punching power. Even when Tyson was with Rooney, Kevin had to constantly remind him to use his defense and setup his shots. In training and during fights thats why he was so important.
^ Twice here you say you disagree with me, but I can't see much actual disagreement at all. All your points above are not contradicting what I wrote.
Over 3 to 4 years. And Tyson did not get the benefit of a World War to lengthen his career and dilute the talent pool.
Bull****, that era was better than the current one by leaps and bounds... Larry Holmes Tony Tucker *Tim Weatherspoon* Tony Tubbs Michael Spinks Trevor Berbick Pinklon Thomas James Tillis Jose Ribalta *Didn't fight Tyson* Excluding Ribalta and Tillis, every one of these guys would beat any HW contender today. I'd also venture to say that Tucker and Weatherspoon would beat Wlad hands down. Watch film before making comments like this.