Wilder v Helenius: A farce

After fighting Povetkin, AJ didn't fight again until mid 2019, Ortiz had stepped aside for AJ to fight Wlad in early-mid 2017. So 38 year old Ortiz would have been on the shelf for more than 2 years, waiting for a potential shot. Instead he signed with PBC and got a shot within 12 months. He then "ducked" AJ by fighting Wilder again that year, who is a bigger puncher and had already KO'd him.

AJ's defenders have to resort to talking about their subjective evaluation of inherently obscure fight negotiations because they can't reference AJ's performances in the ring to support their position, such as quitting against Ruiz or not willing to risk getting KO'd by Usyk in pursuing victory.

 

Wilder isn't getting a title shot next, he has to beat AJ-conqueror and former unified champion Andy Ruiz to be mandatory.

 

A farce because Helenius was terribly overrated.

 

43 year old, 2 KO defeats Ortiz just lost a controversial decision to AJ-conqueror and PBC heavy Andy Ruiz
A post-Wilder 2, morbidly obese and inactive 40+ Stiverne took Joyce 6 rounds
Liakhovich went on to have a highly competitive 10 round distance fight with Ruiz, shopworn and near-40 but never hurt
A badly diminished Szpilka went on to beat Wach, an older version of whom gave Whyte a very tough fight
Washington went on to KO Helenius and is the only man to this day to KO tough journeyman Jerry Forrest, sparked him in 2
Breazeale lasted 7 with Joshua, got destroyed in 1 by Wilder
Duhaupas went 12 rounds with prime roided to the gills Teper and Miller, had beat Charr and went on to take Helenius's 0 in Finland
Molina came to fight for once and went on to KO Adamek in Poland, earning him an AJ title fight
Scott took a dive, can't really count that one but Scott is a coward and probably wanted to boost best mate Wilder's 1st round KO ratio
5 years later and coming off an almost 2 year layoff, Arreola took AJ-conqueror Andy Ruiz to war, dropped him, hurt him multiple times and went the distance

I'm not claiming that Wilder's opposition with the exception of Fury and Ortiz has been strong but it's barely distinguishable from Vitali's 9 consecutive defence WBC reign. By many metrics, Wilder has tended to perform well against his opponents relative to others who have fought them. Wilder's management was overly cautious pre-Ortiz because America hadn't had a heavyweight champion in nearly 8 years.

 

I don't understand the angst here. The winner of Wilder/Helenius had to go through Ruiz, who just defeated Ortiz. As it goes that's a solid semifinal setup for a title shot.

And let's be realistic: Helenius at his age was never *actually* going to get a title shot. He doesn't bring enough money to the table. So he took the best payday he could get (likely $1-2mm or more) and against a guy he knows well and, for all anyone knew, was damaged goods. It didn't work out in the ring but it was the smart decision.

 

It was a fight to get him back on the horse

Hopefully leads to some meaningful big fights next year… an Usyk, AJ, Ruiz, Whyte… take your pick

 

Ortiz didn't step aside that's BS. Joshua wasn't even WBA champion so Ortiz who was interim champion and ranked number 1 at the time couldn't have fought Joshua unless the WBA mandated it for the vacant WBA Super title which they didn't they mandated Joshua/Wlad for that.

Then after Joshua beat Wlad he was contractually obligated to fight Wlad in a rematch which never happened. IBF agreed that Joshua could have an exemption to face Wlad instead of Pulev their mandatory. When Wlad instead retired the IBF enforced their mandatory. So the whole of 2017Joshua fought Wlad, was then contractually obligated to rematch Wlad and then had a mandatory order by the IBF, no way Joshua could have fought Ortiz in 2017 without breaking the contract with Wlad or be stripped by the IBF.

2018 Joshua unified with Parker which was the fight everyone wanted at the time, even ahead of a fight against Wilder. Then the WBA ordered their mandatory but this wasnt' Ortiz at the time as Povetkin was now Mandatory as given up that position by agreeing to fight Wilder in March 2018.

Yeah after fighting Povetkin Joshua didn't fight until mid 2019 probably because Wilder and his team wasted Joshua time with pointless negotiations for a fight Wilder management never wanted. Eventually resulting in the rejected 100 mill deal in March 2019. Joshua then instead signed to fight Miller in his US debut and we all know what happened there. Joshua also offered Ortiz the fight for 7 mill but Ortiz ducked Joshua instead.

 

I was never impressed with Wilder, his skill level, as has been mentioned, is atrocious. We didn't get a chance to see him box at all, so we don't know what improvements he's made. Helenius was wide open and stepped right into that right hand.

For anyone doubting the power of the KO blow, have you listened to the videos that have good audio? It was a cracking shot.

I am actually beginning to think Wilder can do what he did to Helenius, to most of the HW division, IF he comes in at the same weight (lighter is better). Wilder vs Joyce would take longer than most, but Joe gets KO'd.

IF Wilder is actually training hard and learning things, he could rule the majority of these undertrained, unexciting HWs around now.

 

Maybe don't send in your glass jaw fighter against Wilder?

 

Pull the other one, you bullshitter. I remember this too well.

The WBA resolution that Oluwafemi and King Kong received at the start of 2017 stated that the winner of Femi-Klit had to face Ortiz within one hundred twenty days. Femi then got special dispensation from both the WBA and the IBF for the Klit rematch, which went out the window the day Waldo announced his decision to retire, upon which both bodies ordered him to face their mandatories immediately.

We all know that Femi's master subsequently finagled an agreement between Mendoza and Peoples that would defer Femi's obligation to Ortiz, so that Femi wouldn't lose the WBA belt for choosing Pulev (who was shortly replaced by Takam). He did this knowing only too well that Ortiz (having wisely bolstered his team by bringing on Uncle Al a month or so prior to Femi-Klit) would understandably opt for an immediate shot at Wilder's title if he couldn't get Femi in the ring. The usual Hearnian maneuvering. He never wanted Ortiz for Femi and only brought him into the Matchroom fold to manipulate his career path, which Ortiz quickly got wise to before seeking the counsel of Haymon. As a result, two weeks after the announcement of Femi-Pulev, Wilder-Ortiz was announced.


Wilder bodyguarded Oluwafemi from Ortiz, then Fury bodyguarded Oluwafemi from Wilder.

And that is the story of Joshua's career—smoke and mirrors.

He finally stepped up to a threatening doubter in 2021, cornered into doing so by a mandatory obligation, and he bombed out and melted down.


Taking Hearn's word on the value of any offer made to Ortiz to replace Miller

The conceit that Ortiz is duty-bound to step into the breach at six weeks' notice, whatever his circumstances may have been at that time

 

@Brighton bomber

'Ortiz only had to hang around treading water with Scotts and Allens for twenty-four months to get his shot bro, that's not much to ask.'

Yes, two years is the realistic amount of time that Ortiz would've had to wait between Femi-Klit and this theoretical shot at a post-Povetkin Femi you're proposing.

 

"AJ's defenders have to resort to talking about their subjective evaluation of inherently obscure fight negotiations because they can't reference AJ's performances in the ring to support their position, such as quitting against Ruiz or not willing to risk getting KO'd by Usyk in pursuing victory."

Your assessment differs from Finkel's. He claimed that WBA interim champ Ortiz was bypassed in favour of Wlad, who was almost 3 years older, 17 months inactive and coming off a loss but far higher reward than the unknown but undefeated Cuban southpaw counterpuncher.

"Everyone wanted to see Joshua-Parker, even ahead of Joshua-Wilder"

Bizarre claim, requires substantiation. I don't think too many people knew or cared about paint dry, a Wilder matchup was always seen as much more competitive and dangerous, including by Joshua.

"Yeah after fighting Povetkin Joshua didn't fight until mid 2019 probably because..."

Probably because Joshua fights once a year pretty much every year. Since Joshua-Povetkin it's been about 12 months between fights with a single exception.

Why would Ortiz deliberately avoid a career high payday and a shot at 3 belts against Joshua to instead fight another champion who was a harder puncher and had already KO'd him when he was younger and fresher, for less money? It makes zero sense on any level, therefore it's a false narrative. If Ortiz had fought a journeyman a few months later then you'd at least have some internal consistency but fighting a more dangerous opponent, one who has already flattened you, is the opposite of a duck.

Do you at least concede that Ruiz was actually avoiding Ortiz for years and even tried to break his contract to fight a 43 year old 2 KO defeat Ortiz to fight inactive kickboxer Spong in Mexico instead? But Ruiz was happy to fight Joshua for a career highest payday, showed heart and beat him into submission, despite ducking Ortiz.

 

It's not just that Wilder stops nearly all of his opponents and some very quickly, he does well by another key metric: defence. 5 years older, 21 months inactive Arreola hit Ruiz far more than he hit Wilder. Ortiz hit Ruiz twice as much as he hit Wilder almost 3 years prior. Szpilka and Ortiz hit Jennings a lot more than Wilder, especially with power punches. Indeed, Arreola and Fury 1 hit Vitali and Wlad more respectively than they did Wilder. So even in bouts that made it to the 2nd half, Wilder hasn't been hit that much relative to most heavyweights who have fought the same opponents.

Fat Andy is in the same weight range as he always has been as a mature pro. And if we're going to talk about fighters being compromised due to damage, Ruiz has far less of an excuse there than Wilder, who suffered brutal back to back KO defeats to Fury.

Listing all of the future losses of Wilder's opponents is misleading. Wilder's title opponents all had 0-2 losses, sans Arreola. Kevin Johnson had 2 losses when Fury beat him. Hammer, Chisora x2 and Cunningham were similar: 3, 0, 4 and 5 losses when Fury beat them. They all ended up with 10+ losses because they kept fighting well past their best and/or against quality opposition but they were decent or good wins at the time. Some past losses are also misleading: Duhaupas lost to Pianeta when green but Takam lost to Tony when green, they became better fighters and beat better opponents.

Had Wilder bombed out fat Andy a few years ago he would also be counted as a C level opponent, with best wins over Liakhovich, Kevin and Lawrence, all by decision. But fat Andy was sufficiently dangerous to destroy AJ. Douglas, McCall, Rahman, Byrd, Puritty, Sanders and Brewster were commonly regarded as being around C or D level, yet they sprung big upsets. Wilder dealt with all of his B, C and D level opponents without being upset, which as I've shown isn't that common. Vitali's best WBC title defence opponent was arguably Chisora. He was defending against the likes of Arreola, Adamek and Charr, who were beaten respectively by Stiverne, Szpilka and Duhaupas.