Working on My alltime list.

Cheers for the reply

Im happy with Wilde there to tell you the truth, I have had a few people say he was a tad to high if anything.

I wouldnt..I think Nard may be a tad high there but I wouldnt have him any lower then 60 anyway. Joe is in the right place, H2H he goes well but the wins are just not there over prime opposition.

I can dig the comment regarding Pac but I like him :tong

Jake has wins over the no1, 48, 90, 108 on my list and a host of other good fighters to boot..I do agree thats the very highest Id ever have him, maybe could stand to get pushed back a little but I dont have an issue with him there.

RE: The P.S..I agree with that somewhat but there are also other factors you need to take into consideration such as where the respective fighters were in their career and the nature of the fight. I think basing each fighter on their own merit is the most important factor however..much more important.

 

Cheers for the replies fellas...I pretty much gave up in the end, I was moving people around, not being happy with it and then moving them again. I was getting to immersed in research, it was taking a lot of my time and It was starting to be a pain, so I stopped looking a just left it at that, chucking on a few guys at the end to make it an even 120. So Im was always going to miss out on a few names and I take your critique on board.

Having Evander there is quite bizarre actually...I put in the "who is greater Holmes/Evander" thread I have Holmes a bit higher and I wasnt sure why and that answers it. I thought I had him at 60 but he got pushed back and bit whilst I was chopping and changing..possibly as far back as the late 70's.
Im fairly certain he was the phantom 68 but how he got pushed back 30 spots is beyond me..Im a big Holy fan to tell you the truth.

So this is the revised list with Sonny Liston slotting in...bit of an oversight of mine, he should have made it in there.


Top 50.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Joe Gans
11. Archie Moore
12. Joe Louis
13. Sugar Ray Leonard
14. Mickey Walker
15. Pernell Whitaker
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Gene Tunney
19. Carlos Monzon
20. Barney Ross

21. Marvin Hagler
22. Tony Canzoneri
23. Ike Williams
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Emile Griffith
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Eder Jofre
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Tommy Hearns
30. Julio Cesar Chavez
31. Charley Burley
32. Joe Walcott
33. Salvador Sanchez
34. Jose Napoles
35. Carlos Ortiz
36. Michael Spinks
37. Fighting Harada
38. Roy Jones Jr
39. Luis Manual Rodriguez

40. Jimmy McLarin
41. Tommy Loughran
42. Rocky Marciano
43. Harold Johnson
44. Manny Pacquaio
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Ruben Olivares
47. Jake Lamotta

48. Holman Williams
49. Ted Lewis
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Jack Johnson
52. Dick Tiger
53. Abe Attell
54. Terry McGovern
55. Floyd Mayweather Jnr
56. Wilfred Benitez
57. Carlos Zarate
58. Bob Foster
59. Jack “Kid” Berg

60. Packey McFarland
61. Lou Ambers
62. Jim Driscoll
63. Stanley Ketchel
64. Dave Holly
65. Kid Chocolate
66. Miguel Canto
67. Azumah Nelson
68. Evander Holyfield
69. Mike McCallum
70. Manuel Ortiz
71. Oscar De La Hoya
72. Vicente Salvidar
73. Pascual Perez
74. Lennox Lewis
75. Billy Graham
76. Young Corbett
77. Felix Trinidad
78. Billy Conn
79. Aaron Pryor

80. Joe Frazier
81. Lloyd Marshall
82. Nicolino Lochee
83. Flash Elorade
84. Jack Britton
85. George Foreman
86. Larry Holmes
87. Tiger Flowers
88. Jeff Fenech
89. Antonio Cervantes
90. Marcel Cerdan
91. Ricardo Lopez
92. Carmen Basillo
93. Jack Dempsey
94. Duillo Loi
95. Joe Brown
96. Erik Morales
97. Gene Fullmer
98. Mike Tyson
99. Beau Jack
100. PanchoVilla

101. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
102. Sammy Angott
103. Lew Tendler
104. Sonny Liston
105. Marco Antonio Barrera
106. Bob Montgomery
107. Ismael Laguna
108. Fritizie Zivic
109. Jack Dillon
110. Shane Mosley
111. Jersey Joe Walcott
112. Jim Jeffries
113. Young Griffo
114. Eusebio Pedroza
115. Jimmy Bivins
116. Kostya Tszyu
117. Owen Moran
118. Nino Benvenuti
119. Joe Calzaghe
120. Johnny Kilbane


That was the only major change I made..Ill work on it from time to time, taking people out, putting people in, moving them around but overall Im pleased with it.

 

Harry not being there is another oversight I admit but Im not so sure Id have him top 50..Id have to think about it.

His wins over Langford certainly mean he should be ranked in at least the 100 but considering the size advantage he had over Langford, you have to put those wins into context and not just take them on face value.

His first win over Sam was when Langford was 31 in the long tailend of his career and Wills was 25 or so and just coming into his prime years. Wills was a true heavyweight, relatively big for the day whereas Sam was more suited to middleweight.
Other then Langford, Harry's resume is a little thin compared to a lot of guys in the 100..No fault of his own more then likely as he seemed to be avoided like the plague, especially by Dempsey..A win over Dempsey would have changed how his career is viewed immensely.

Im not sure what your are talking about saying Bivins lost all his big time fights considering he has wins over Charles, Burley, Moore, Marshall and Maxim. Most of his losses came in the last 1/3 of his career.


RE: Kostya over Shane..Mosley was a name that was in that list towards the end but he got squeezed out. I think I would have had him at 122-123 if I continued anyway.
Beating Marga wont catapault him up the list as far as some people would want him to but he will certainly move up some places. Im sure Id put him over Kostya now seeing as though he wasnt that far behind him IMO to start off with.

 

Thats fair..they are close anyway.

But considering Ike's best weight was lightweight and Gavilan's was welter, the wins have to be put into context, especially when Ike gave away 10 pounds in their last fight.

Just because Gavilan has the edge H2H doesnt necessarily make him clearly the greater fighter when you think about it.

I dont have a problem with someone putting Gav higher but I dont agree with their fight series being the breaker.

 

When I did the original 50 about 2 years ago I spent a couple of weeks working on it. Not every day or anything..Id go 3 or 4 days sometimes with out even looking at it, but then I could spend close to 3 hours working on it in a sitting.

This time around I kept the 50 mostly in tact, with a few minor changes..I spent like a week doing the 100 then I gave up and just slotted in the rest in, extending it to 120 because there were a few names I wanted to put in to show (to myself mainly but others aswell) that I hadnt forgotten about these guys, they just missed out. I wanted to fully do it properly but in the end I was just spending to much time looking up stuff..rather be fishing, boating and/or drinking to tell you the truth. Hence why its far from perfect and now you can see people are pointing out its flaws, which I was expecting.

Its good fun but it can drag you into far sometimes with the researching.

First and foremost its about the resume.

Who they beat, how they beat them, their longevity as a champ or/and a contender, their level of dominance. Their p4p achievments are very important but you have to look at the opposition beaten more then anything. Manny has won many titles across a lot of weight divisions if you were to base it purely on that then he would be very high on the list. But you have to consider the guys he beat to get them, where they were in their respective careers at the time and the fact that he fights in an era with a lot more divisions and titles to fight for.
Takes a bit of time to research the names on a lot of guys records because they can often be obscure..And it certainly should involve more then just looking up boxrec and youtube.

I put a lot less emphasis on H2H specualtion but I do consider it when making the list nonetheless.

I got to be honest I wasnt totally consistent with my criteria. Some guys are in there because I like them and I put more emphasis on other criteria to cater for them a little more. But you have to because some guys you can see there whole career on film, whereas other you would be hardpressed to see any video on them. For instance a guy like Pryor doesnt have near the resume of many guys behind him but his clearly a monster H2H at the weight he fought at.
A guy like Greb is there based purely on his amazing record, not because he impressed on film because there is basically none of him.

Good luck with it mate. They are fun to make and you can learn a lot in the process.:good