Would modern Deontay Wilder be too small for the 80s/90s HW divison?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by reznick, Jul 21, 2018.


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  1. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    Someone should start a Jess Willard vs Lennox Lewis thread. Hopefully that thread will break the record and go 80 pages
     
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Jul 25, 2018
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Jul 25, 2018
    #106
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I’d argue he hasn’t proven himself big enough for THIS heavyweight division. He beat:

    The #6 contender supposedly while the #6 was Ill with lupus.

    Luis Ortiz, a genuinely good win but against a boxer whose last meangful win was 2015.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    #107
    Seamus likes this.
  3. Jackomano

    Jackomano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ridiculous thread. If a fighter is talented and skilled 200 lbs is more than enough to fight with a heavyweight of any size. Holmes in his prime around 205-215 had no problem beating a heavyweight of any size. Ernie Terrell who was the same height as Wilder, but much lighter had no problem with guys 15-30 lbs heavier.

    Even less than 200 is plenty. Leon Spinks before he became a drug fiend had no problem giving up size and winning. Smaller guys have better speed, timing, defense, and boxing IQ's or at least they should. Michael Spinks also had no problem with much bigger fighter before both of his knees were shot.

    Leon Spinks 6'1" 201 lbs vs. Alfio Righetti 6'4" 217 lbs
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    Bob Pastor also often fought well under 200 lbs and had no problem beating giants. He had the most trouble with guys closer to his size, since giants can be out hustled and beat to the punch.

    Marvis Frazier had no problem giving up size and beat everyone he fought regardless of their size by both out hustling them and outboxing them except for Larry Holmes, who Marvis couldn't out hustle or outbox and Mike Tyson, who he also could'nt outbox or out hustle.
     
    Jackomano, Jul 25, 2018
    Jackomano, Jul 25, 2018
    #108
  4. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    What are you talking about? Stiverne was top 5 and never had lupus. You can’t be a pro boxer with lupus.
     
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    #109
    GlaukosTheHammer likes this.
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The first Stiverne-Wilder fight.

    In RING? Yeah, no use for those rankings since the magazine was bought by a promoter; i'm TBRB now. But whatever he was with Ring is fine with me too. I don't think it matters really.

    :lol: this is infinitely true.

    Wtf was it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    #110
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Rhabdomiolysis! Or some **** like that, can't spell it.
     
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    #111
  7. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    That’s caused by strenuous exercise, dehydration etc. I’ll bet that the fight induced almost all of that. I don’t think his prefight urine was brown.
     
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    #112
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I've no doubt; but I'm sure he wasn't hospitalised after boxing as a matter of course with this problem.

    It's possible that it had absolutely no affect on his performance but he claims it did and from what I remember of the problem it seemed to me likely that it had.

    None of this is Wilder's fault, and none of it really matters.

    The point is, these very limited achievements by Wilder no more prove that a fighter of Wilder's size can do great things in the division than Chris Byrd did, for example. The jury is still out.
     
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    #113
  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Byrd never beat anyone as big, good, and not seriously injured as Ortiz.
     
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    #114
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    How do you know that?

    Ortiz beat Bryan Jennings in 2015 and since then has taken Tony Thompson (3-3 in 6 going in), Malik Scott (Malik Scott), David Allen (9-1-1 and what is held as "British level" in the GF), Daniel Martz (3-3 in his last six going in), and then Wilder. So, he'd been treading some very serious water since he made his bones with Jennings.

    At his very very best you have an argument that he was better than David Tua but I'd say Tua was better. Certainly the proof that Ortiz 2018 was better than 2001 Tua is highly debatable to put it politely.

    But again, it doesn't matter - what i'm saying is that Byrd, by beating Tua, Klitschko, Evander Holyfield, others, was more proven at heavy than Wilder is - and he was. That's pretty much irrefutable at the moment.

    I'd like more from Wilder before we start holding him up as proof of anything, and i'd like more from Ortiz before I start crowning Wilder's win over him. As Ortiz is currently lining up a Romanian journeyman, we won't be getting that any time soon.

    I've said it the Ortiz win was good and i'm happy with that description. The lupus win doesn't mean much to me in a historical sense :lol:
     
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    #115
  11. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    I thought this thread was about superheavyweights. Wilder legitimately beat one good one (two if Stiverne counts). Byrd never beat one who wasn’t seriously injured or under 6 feet.

    Byrd also failed to beat one on four occasions off the top of my head.
     
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    #116
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Let's bin the Byrd point then.

    Wilder's resume is far to thin to be using him for some sort of proof of any given truth in the heavyweight division. In terms of quality fighters defeated he is basically nowhere.
     
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    McGrain, Jul 25, 2018
    #117
  13. Mark Adam

    Mark Adam Active Member banned Full Member

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    For his previous fights he has weighed between 230-240lbs.
     
    Mark Adam, Jul 25, 2018
    Mark Adam, Jul 25, 2018
    #118
    BCS8 likes this.
  14. Mark Adam

    Mark Adam Active Member banned Full Member

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    Usyk would wipe the floor with a weight drained Wilder at cruiser.
     
    Mark Adam, Jul 25, 2018
    Mark Adam, Jul 25, 2018
    #119
  15. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Wilder does need more fights.

    If we’re using Stiverne and Golota as a bottom of the barrel definition of a “good super heavyweight,” that puts Wilder in the same company as Bowe for going 2-0. There just aren’t many fighters who have put up winning records or logged many wins against good super heavys.
     
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    NoNeck, Jul 25, 2018
    #120
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