What Point In Time Does Ron Lyle Beat M Tyson?

Lyle shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath as Mike.

I mean, at what point in the timeline of Mike’s career could the likes of a Buster Douglas or Evander Holyfield have any chance of beating Tyson? Lol. The answer, again, is probably NEVER.

Ah, but that’s right, bother Buster and Evander (X 2) did actually fight and beat Mike - and at respective points during Mike’s career when no one was even giving them a snowball’s chance in hell of doing same (odds of 42-1 against and opening odds of 25-1 against respectively).

I don’t think it is Lyle who is the most overrated in the Fantasy Realm, and the calculation of his chances appear more realistically anchored in the realities of his ACTUAL career - Mike’s own chances being not so well anchored in the facts of his own resume.

Interesting that, though it was burst multiple times during his ACTUAL career, Mike still somehow drags the benefits of the perceived “aura” of invincibility he held at one time - and not for long - during his career.

First there was Buster, then Evander - but even with those complexions and outcomes, it was apparently still too hard for some people to let go of their most preferred and ideal image of Mike - so much so, he was still installed as favourite (albeit it at much shorter odds) for the Holyfield rematch.

Without the luxury of hypothesising a result that will never see an actual outcome to test the prognostication - we all actually did get to see exactly what went down in the Holyfield rematch also.

From where I’m sitting, of the two fantasy combatants, Ronnie’s reasonably expressed chances of possibly beating post prison Mike are looking far more tethered in reality.

 

Well I will give you that, LOL, but again I simply don’t understand the adoration people here have for the guy.

 

Douglas showed skill in Tokyo than Lyle could only ever dream of. Holyfield had arguably his best performance of his career -- he put on a counterpunching masterclass. Evander parried and combo'd better than Lyle ever could. Evander also had a better chin than Lyle and absorbed a lot of powerful Tyson hooks that Lyle likely couldn't.

What makes you think Lyle is capable of handling 1996-era Tyson? Which Lyle performances make you think he could do what Holyfield did?

 

Maybe because he had balls and integrity.

Kept his mouth shut and did his time in prison instead of snitching. Survived being stabbed and needing to be revived on the operating table multiple times. Was bored while in prison and did 1000 pushups a day and took up boxing. Despite his late start, he did alright for himself and beat some decent fighters.

Then of course there's the fact he stood toe to toe with Shavers and Foreman (perhaps the 2 hardest hitters of all time) in two thrilling wars without an ounce of fear or quit. Challenged Ali and did ok before getting stopped. Later became a trainer and spoke to the youth about working hard and not becoming hoodlums and drug addicts.

It's a pretty insane story and deserves a movie. Plus he's fun to watch.

 

He turned out to be a good guy and did OK under the circumstances and I guess he was entertaining, but I still think it’s an enormous stretch to say he could have beaten the folks that his acolytes say he’d have a chance to beat. Honestly I think he’d have issues beating Floyd Patterson. But I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

Note, I said Lyle’s chances - I didn’t say that he would necessarily do exactly what Holyfield did.

Several are precluding Lyle of having ANY chance of beating Mike around the time Mike got out of prison.

Lyle banged on with Shavers and Foreman - what makes you think that Ron is going to fold like a cheap suit (let alone not punch back with venom) upon Mike hitting him?

Evander, though he had already exhibited an excellent chin wasn’t supposed to be able to handle Mike’s power either - and his chin had also already accrued a lot of wear/tear - but he still took the shots.

Obviously, there was something up with someone’s pre fight calculations and projections in that regard.

Due respect, but you either missing or skipping the obvious point that Mike’s own chances or, should I say, perceived levels of dominance at several turns of his career were wildly overrated - and proven to be so after the hard fact of several fights.

Of course Douglas and Holyfield will have been viewed as “fighting the fights of their lives” -

That’s always been the circular reasoning invoked to protect Mike - and to offset the wayward predictions of him obliterating certain fighters during his ACTUAL career.

There were two fighters in particular, who didn’t just defy the odds but, in fact, turned those wayward forecasts completely on their head by beating up and STOPPING Mike.

Also, fair to highlight that Evander apparently fought the “fight of his life” TWICE against Mike. Go figure.

Going back in time, Tillis in a career lull and tabbed as a 10-1 underdog was also expected to be obliterated - read: not just beaten BUT obliterated - but the complexion and outcome was FAR from that expectation.

I’ve also read people suggest that Tillis also, somehow, “fought the fight of his life” against Mike. Another fighter to add to the “once in a life timers”

When the smoke cleared on Holyfield 2, it would’ve been more apt to look for flaws in the analysis and rating of Mike’s true abilities and associated forecasts - rather than suggest that another fighter, somehow and inexplicably rose to the occasion in sublime fashion.

No insignificant fact to highlight that Mike was somehow at the short end of two of the biggest “upsets” in boxing history.

As to Lyle not being as good as Holyfield in overall terms - fair but going into the first Tyson fight, Holyfield himself would’ve been reasoned to have been well beneath Douglas in so far as not having all the “right” tools that Buster exhibited in his defeat of beat Mike -

Obviously, wrong again there - and of course Evander fought a different fight to Douglas but still, “somehow”, came out on top - TWICE.

Again, the point being, IF Buster and Evander had never fought Mike - I’m sure that many hypothesises in the Fantasy Realm would have them being EASILY cleaned up by Mike also - the Fantasy Mike, not the real Mike.

Some also believe that Fantasy Mike destroys Louis in a round or two. Others again have Ali in grave peril, facing possible early round defeat himself - during the first 3 rounds or so.

Based on those skewed forecasts, I’m not at all surprised by the unreasonable LACK of chance being afforded to Lyle here.

 

In a realistic world outside of this forum, the only time Old Foreman beats Tyson is around 2001 and even then I'm not so sure.

Same with Lyle. He isn't beating someone like Mike Tyson. Not until 2001...and that's not a sure thing either.

 

Who are all these people claiming he's some sort of amazing top 20 h2h monster? I rarely see people overrating him.

If I were to analyze his stats, it would look something like this:

Power: 8
Speed: 6
Chin: 8
Footwork: 4
Stamina: 7
Technique: 6
Combinations: 6
Defense: 5
Body punching: 8
Accuracy: 6
Ring IQ: 4
Versatility: 3
Timing: 6
Heart: 8

Overall rating: 6

I would give him a puncher's chance, but I would favor Patterson to beat Lyle. He was a decent slugger who could sometimes box using his decent jab and 1-2 with ok fundamentals. Lyle was neither the hardest puncher nor the smartest boxer and wasn't particularly fast, but he had a little bit of everything and could give most people a decent fight.

 

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...tay-wilder-would-be-sanctioned-murder.714065/

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...le-giving-joe-louis-a-dangerous-fight.609745/

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/rocky-marciano-53-vs-ron-lyle-75.670908/

 

I agree. If Douglas and Holyfield never fought Tyson, h2h threads would no doubt be filled with dozens of posts where people completely write them off. We know this because, well, Douglas was in fact written off. Even after the win, it took quite some time for people to give him any sort of credit and to this day, some still consider it a fluke akin to winning the lottery. Holyfield wasn't dismissed to that extent, but there were still several people expressing serious doubts or even fearing for Holyfield's health (pretty funny in hindsight).

I would favor him to beat Joe Louis, but just 1-2 rounds...? Kind of hard to envision unless Joe is just having an awful night and Tyson is firing on all cylinders. Stopping Ali of all people in 3 rounds is even harder to envision. I think if Tyson were to beat Ali, it would likely be a decision or late round stoppage at worst, (and I'm not sure Tyson beats Ali in the first place). Ali had both a great chin and great recovery, great footwork, head movement, knew how to spoil and play possum, etc. I just don't see how that's possible.

Your post highlights something about the Brooklyn Bomber:

1) There's the actual Tyson.

2) Then there's the h2h god Tyson.

The former was a great fighter: good power, good hand speed, amazing head movement and timing, ferocious body work, had a good resume, and few look as impressive crushing legitimate contenders. I have him in my top 10 for both resume and h2h despite the fact he misses 3 years of his prime and probably only achieved maybe 70-80% of his potential.

2) The latter is something out of a video game or Greek mythology. Apparently he has 10/10 power, speed, chin, timing, accuracy, endurance, technique, defense, etc. Before that blasted witch Desiree Washington casted black magic on him, Don King brainwashed him, and Rooney parted ways, he was well on his way to going 100-0 with 100 knockouts. Without those setbacks, he would've been greater than Ali, Duran, Robinson, and Chavez combined. He once smashed 20 different women in a 24 hour period and still managed to do his roadwork in the morning without any sleep. He once hit a heavybag so hard, it flew off the chain at 200 mph and left a crater in the wall. That pet tiger he had? Tyson once overpowered it while wrestling. If you disagree with any of this or insinuate he'd lose to any other fighter at his peak, you're a hater and Tyson must have smashed your mom or you lost a bet.

 

I’m not going to alter or ignore the material complexions and outcomes in Lyle’s career to unjustly rate overrate his chances.

I’ll just make the observation that Lyle could strangely assume a subordinate role against some bigger names.

Even when Ali sparred with Ron in 1970 before Lyle had turned pro, Muhammad commented on Lyle being too respectful and holding back.

Ali said to Ron that, in a real pro fight, Ali wouldn’t being holding anything back vs Ron.

Though Lyle did well against Ali up until the later stages, he did appear to be tethered to Ali’s own pace and meter - almost like a respectful sparring partner.

Lyle should’ve incrementally stepped up his own offence when Ali himself wasn’t laying it all out.

When Ali HAD to step it up, he caught Ron cold - so I can see how it might’ve appeared that Ron only did well until Ali “woke up”.

In a come forward, braced for action, aggressive fight we saw that Lyle could be (or could be forced into being) a different animal again.

Though some have observed that it was Lyle, not Foreman, who started out as the aggressor in their fight - and I think there is some truth in that observation.

At best, I think Lyle could be an extreme puncher - but he wasn’t always mentally committed to unleash his full power - but he did against Foreman and George rated Ron’s power in accord with the shots he took from Ron in that fight.

 

These are some pretty bad examples.

1) Did you even watch Wilder's last fight? He looked TERRIBLE. I would also pick Lyle to stop that version of Wilder. The guy was gunshy barely throwing anything, had leaky defense, power just wasn't there, horrible timing, poor balance, etc.

2) Literally the first post in the thread, the guy says "Louis would eventually stop him". He simply thinks Lyle gives Louis a decent fight before losing...what's wrong with that? Do you think Lyle is worse than Galento or Buddy Baer who dropped Louis and gave him a hard time? You are referencing a thread where someone picks Lyle to lose as proof he's overrated?

3) How Rocky Marciano does against modern sized guys is a big mystery. On paper, you should favor Rocky but anything could happen. I mean Rocky was no defensive wizard by any stretch of the imagination and is giving up about 35 lbs of muscle to Lyle. Rocky would be fighting an aggressive fight against an opponent whose 5 inches taller who can hit pretty hard. I'm not saying I fully agree with people picking Lyle, but there is nothing outrageous in claiming he might win given Rocky's extremely thin resume against bigger men and punchers in general. Also, Rocky was leading in votes.

 

That's actually a very accurate assessment imo. I'd change his stamina to a 6 as he fought at a measured pace, and when forced to exert himself he was visibly gassed (example being vs Foreman).

I'd also give his heart a 9. Not many can start boxing in their 30s, let alone after getting shot and dying on the operating table. Not to mention getting off the floor to beat Shavers (though I still think had that been even 40 seconds earlier, Lyle was done), and his performance against Foreman.

 

Whatever, we can agree to disagree. As noted I saw the man in real time and was not all that impressed and close to 50 years haven’t changed my mind. I think people’s opinions of him are inflated because they gravitate to his compelling story, he had an entertaining style and the Foreman fight has gained legendary status. But I am not changing anyone’s mind and no one is going to change my mind although I concede I might be on my private island here, so I’m bowing out of further Ron Lyle discussion.

 

We all have our favorites!