How Long Does Wilder Last, As An 80 's Belt Holder?

Well, you're leaving out all of Weaver's loses. He lost to Duane Bobick, Rodney Bobick, Stan Ward, Leroy Jones, Howard Smith (twice), Larry Frazier, Billy Ryan (all before Weaver fought Holmes) ... and Weaver lost to Smith (who is on that list) twice, and he lost to Thomas (also on the list).

The only guy on the list of WBA alphabet champs provided by that other poster in the 80s Weaver has a win over is Tate ... and it came with 45 seconds left in a fight where he lost 13 of the first 14 rounds.

So, I'd say Dokes. (Although, I would've included Coetzee on the list instead of Michael Spinks, if we are listing WBA champs.)

Regardless, I think Wilder beats them all, particularly Weaver. Weaver lost to basically everyone.

 

Well it looks like it's that time again. Look at what you are up against folks. It sure ain't Nostradamus.


Dubblechin said: ↑
Wilder TKO1 Fury in their rematch.

Wilder knows how to attack Fury now. Wilder will come into the ring around 228 - roughly 15 or 16 pounds bigger than last time. He's already had Fury down twice. He'll start fast. The added weight and power will blow Fury's mind.

Fury fought basically the perfect fight last time, against a severely underweight Wilder, and Fury still couldn't win.

Against a heavier, stronger more aggressive Wilder, Fury's going to be overwhelmed.

Short night's work for Wilder.

Dubblechin said: ↑
Wilder weighed less for the first Fury fight than any bout except his pro debut. Wilder was emaciated. And he said he lost weight after the weigh in.

People go on and on about Fury's conditioning, but the first fight with Wilder was one of the best performances of Fury's career. And it'll go down in history as one of the best performances Fury every delivered in the ring.

Fury was in better shape for the first Wilder fight than he was for Hammer or either Chisora fight. He'd been in camp for nearly an entire year. And Fury was very sharp when he stepped in the ring for the WBC title.

Wilder was arguably the weakest he'd been for any fight since his debut, and he still had Fury on the deck twice. Wilder is a more ferocious puncher when he weighs in the 220s. He'll weigh in the high 220s for Ortiz and Fury.

Wilder's about to face two guys who he's already had down five times in total. He's going to come in heavier and stronger in their rematches and just walk thru both.

Dubblechin said: ↑
Wilder clearly wasn't 100 percent, either. And now Wilder also knows what he has to do to drop Fury, since he did it twice. So he'll get right on it.

Dubblechin said: ↑
I've been listening to this nonsense that Tyson Fury will be better for the rematch. Tyson Fury was sharp as hell and fighting at an excellent weight for him the night he faced Wilder.

Wilder, on the other hand, didn't fight well at all. And yet he still nearly pulled out a TKO win at the end. Wilder was scrawny. He missed a lot. He wasn't sharp at all. Fury was.

All Wilder has to do is have a NORMAL camp, come in weighing 226/228, and come out aggressively ... which he should since he knows he can floor Fury and Fury - despite being nearly 50 pounds heavier than Wilder - couldn't drop Wilder.

Dubblechin said: ↑
But the argument that Fury was not at his best for their first meeting and Wilder was, is a joke. Their weights told the story as much as anything else. Fury was a little lighter than he's been for most of his fights, and Wilder was totally depleted and fought like it.

Dubblechin said: ↑
Deontay Wilder flooring Tyson Fury twice and successfully defending his title is something you guys purposely leave out all the time and it blows any argument you're trying to make.

Wilder successfully defending against Fury was a better successful defense than any defense Marciano made. Layne and Matthews weren't even title defenses, and Matthews was a SMALL light heavyweight. That would be like if Wilder obliterated a super middleweight contender right now, like Billy Joe Saunders. That's a joke.

Apples to apples.

Do you honestly believe Harry Matthews is a tougher out than Tyson Fury?

I'm not going to do this today. I just hope all these threads are preserved and you guys stick around for a couple years. Because they're going to be hysterical soon.

Dubblechin said: ↑
You're wrong about Wilder. Comically wrong. He's an all-time great. He'll be a first ballot Hall of Famer. He's making his 10th consecutive defense next. Some of you guys aren't the brightest bulbs, clearly. Some day you'll catch up.

There's always a straggler on the bandwagon.

Dubblechin said: ↑
I can recognize an all-timer when I see one. Wilder is an all-timer. I've been following boxing since the 1970s ... I've never seen a heavyweight in that time like him.

Dubblechin said: ↑
When Wilder stops Fury early in the rematch, Marciano-Walcott 1 and 2 will look like a Poor Man's Wilder-Fury 1 & 2.

Dubblechin said: ↑
When did I agree to that?

It was one of Wilder's worst performances. He came in way too light and his timing was off all night. Still, he threw more punches in every round but one and scored two hard knockdowns.

It was arguably Fury's best performance.

I expect Wider to finish him quicker next time.

 

I don't think anyone took that as my example except for you, but the clear difference here is that Holmes beat majority of those that he faced on that list and based on his performances it's a fair assumption to make that he likely would've beaten them all if he faced them and his age didn't catch up to him.

Wilder was still fighting no hopers several years into his career and the quality of Wilder's title defenses after he won the WBC title lead me to believe that he wouldn't have managed to pull off more than 3 successful defenses in a row if he picked up that WBC title in the 80s.

Duly Noted, however I'm not giving Wilder a blank check over these fighters because the opponents that he did beat were a tier below and he's not exactly a technician in the ring. Yes his punching power is massive but that isn't always enough.

Those 80s Champs were evenly matched but a tier above the Wilder victim list.

So yes, he successfully defended his title because he was facing mostly C- fighters. If he won the vacant WBC title in '84 against Greg Page, his first defense would have been against:

Tim Witherspoon,
2nd def Pinklon Thomas,
3rd Mike Weaver,
4th Trevor Berbick,
5th Mike Tyson.

I personally don't see him replicating the same level of success in recording 10 title defenses with that kind of schedule.

 

As conclusive as a dozen Wilder right hands against yet another cannon fodder contender

 

Wilder is a genetic freak in the 2010's/20's, he'd be a complete physical anomaly if you could time machine him back to the 80's. No one had anything remotely resembling his combination of explosive power, length, speed, durability, tenacity and experience. He would reign until his late 30's, knocking everyone out until his body broke down from all of the punishment.

 

No, the clear difference is you tried to infer Wilder wouldn't beat those guys because Szpilka couldn't.

We're comparing Wilder with guys like Tony Tubbs.

You took Wilder's opponents and compared them the alphabet champs instead of comparing the alphabet champs WITH WILDER.

That's like comparing Lorenzo Zanon with Pinklon Thomas and saying, well Thomas beats Zanon so therefore Thomas beats Larry Holmes.

It doesn't work that way.

 

Exactly. You have to practically kill Wilder to get him out of there. Those 80s alphabet champs didn't put it on the line like that. Spoon didn't train and claims he took a dive against Smith. They had to try to bribe Tubbs to come in at a reasonable weight by offering him tens of the thousands of dollars for each pound he lost before the Tyson fight. Tubbs said no. Lasted about five minutes after the opening bell. Thomas held it together for a couple years. By the time he lost to Berbick, Pinklon (who hadn't even turned 30) was using drugs again, living in a retirement community and trying to make dance music. None of them put their heart into it.

They just didn't care. That's why fans were so happy when Mike Tyson came along.

 

Weren't the alphabet champs also each other's opponents, though?

 

We're comparing WILDER to the alphabet champs. How does WILDER do against Mike Weaver? How does Wilder do against Tubbs? Not how SZPILKA does against them.

 

As I understand it, one of the criticisms leveled against Wilder in this thread is a low level of opposition. So isn't it fair to point out the inferiority of Wilder's opposition (like Szpilka) compared to the alphabet champs' opposition (which included other alphabet champs)?

But yes, I agree it's obvious that Szpilka was no Pinklon Thomas, Tim Witherspoon, or Larry Holmes.

 

You halved the decade. The original poster said what if Wilder fought John Tate in 1980?

He beats Tate, Weaver, Gerrie (I'm intimidated by Weaver, boy, Wilder's even bigger and hits even harder) Coetzee, Quick Tillis, Michael (Anyone got any crack?) Dokes, Michael Dokes again, Gerrie (how did I end up back here?) Coetzee (again), Greg (I just lost to David Bey, I've got nothing else going on) Page, Tony Tubbs, Tim (I think I'll take a dive tonight) Witherspoon, Bonecrusher (I think I'll try to hug for 12 rounds) Smith ...

Then Wilder fights Tyson in 1987 ... who wasn't exactly SHARP against Bonehugger.

That's 11 ... plus he's fighting Mike Tyson who is losing his hair and is being pressured to drop his trainer because he's so stressed out.

After Tyson, there is Pinkon Thomas on heroin again. Tony (even fatter than last time) Tubbs (again). Larry (I didn't have time to train) Holmes and Michael Spinks.

Then there's Frank Bruno, Carl Williams, Buster Douglas and Holyfield.

So, if he gets past Tyson in March 1987, one of Tyson's worst fights ... who stops Wilder before he get to defense #20 against Evander?

 

We're comparing Wilder to the other champs.

The other champs all fought Spzilkas in their career ... but their Szpilkas didn't get carried out of the ring on the stretcher.

You guys will do anything to IGNORE ALL THE LOSSES those alphabet champs had and bash Top 10 Rated WBC contenders who got carried out of the ring on a stretcher against Wilder.

Pinklon Thomas lost to Mike Hunter's dad (a journeyman). Witherspoon took a dive against 18-5 Bonecrusher Smith (after everyone including Marvis Frazier beat him).

Page got knocked out by Mark Wills twice. Lost to Bey.

Weaver lost to Duane Bobick AND HIS BROTHER.

Because you'll do anything but actually discuss the topic ... which is how well Wilder does against those other champs.

You'd rather make comparisons like Pinklon Thomas beats Zanon so Thomas beats Larry Holmes. And try to shift who we're comparing.

Because you know Wilder beats all those alphabet champs until the late 80s ... when he's faced with Tyson or Holyfield, and neither of them are a sure thing against Wilder, either.

 

If you erase the filler from Wilder’s reign, and make it Stiverne I, Ortiz I, Fury I (draw), and Ortiz II, that is still a better reign than anyone in the 80s except for Holmes and Tyson.

Never mind that a guy like Malik Scott, who lasted for one punch against Wilder, would probably win half the time against guys like Tillis, Marvis, early 80s Bonecrusher, and Bey.