Larry Holmes vs George Foreman

Yes Holmes had maybe the best jab among the HWs, although by the time of Williams he was getting beaten to that particular punch.
Although you can make an argument for Ali because it came from many unpredictable angles, & so fast.

You are an astute observer of the sweet science.
Not so long ago I saw a video of the roast of Larry Holmes.
Cobb spoke about Larry moaning about his hand pain & swelling after their fight.
Of course his sympathy was limited due to the condition of his visage. But it would be impossible to ruin his good looks lol!

Cobb is very funny, he elsewhere also said he could have worn him down by implementing his strategy of stumbling face forward & wearing Larry's hands down with his face.
I will leave his particular wording in this case to enjoy below...
And talking about the drop kick attach on Berbick.
Apparently he turned to the referee during the fight & exclaimed "Help me, your white"!

Who else could get away with repeatedly calling Holmes a bit*ch?
In another event like this he deployed the N word outrageously & the brothers were laughing...
Holmes looks like he is having a grand old time...

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It's not that Holmes was weak but more Ali being underrated for his physical strength.

 

Agreed. He was largely doing the right things,
But he was not physically there anymore. So, I'm not sure whether it was panic or the sheer physical shock to an aged body that wouldn't let him respond in the way his instincts knew he ought to.
That Holmes got up after that first KD, at all, is remarkable.
With that in mind, I think a prime Holmes would have made it out of the round.

 

I meant to write that Larry panicked after the first knock down...I don't see him doing that in his prime. I think he would have rode it out, say in 1979, then started turning it around back to his favor the next round.

I just can't see Larry losing to Mike in his prime, though I'm positive he would have had to fight like hell. But that's just me.

 

He wouldn’t need to fight anything like Ali. You can call it a diminished Foreman if you want but he still got utterly schooled by Jimmy Young who was no great fighter if you have eyes to see. Why doesn’t he survive? Based on Foreman beating Norton and Frazier? Or getting beat up by Ali thinking he was winning? I think losing just about every round to Jimmy Young says something he wasn’t that far gone at all. He looked better before Young against guys that made him look good well expect Ali who answered a lot of questions.

I disagree here is the thing with the RIJ Ali didn’t need to move against Foreman that’s why he didn’t in spite of everything said the main reason Ali was picked for George was because they thought his legs were gone and the money was good. I didn’t see George’s great ability to cut the ring against Jimmy Young did you? Even when he did get Ali there he still lost.

Apologies about the Holmes round count it’s been a while, really watch the fight you’ll see what I’m talking about. It’s not a huge selling point though.

 

Then you're going to need to explain to me how you think Holmes 'mugs' Foreman then.

Well - it's not just me wanting to refer to Foreman in those terms. It is common knowledge that, since Foreman's defeat in Zaire, there had been a distinct change in his mindset, a change of trainer and a change of strategy. Clancy was trying to change the spots on a leopard which, in itself, made Foreman a less effective fighter.

And, Young didn't "utterly school" Foreman. He simply did what he usually did, which was to fight negatively.

Foreman obliged, with his new found early patience, a stand-offish approach, a lack of preparation and acclimatization before the bout, and didn't overcome Young's negative style.

So, firstly, one has to accept that the Foreman of San Juan was somewhat removed from the Foreman of Zaire. I think this is clearly the case, both in terms of what has been said/written on Foreman at the time and since, as well as what is, to me, quite clearly represented on film.

With this in mind, it is more than reasonable to hold the position that Zaire Foreman would have tracked Young down and landed significant punches from Round-1 and, unless you want to consider Young on a par with Ali's strength and durability, then I don't see how Young withstands the onslaught. Young himself, indicates that Foreman could have had him out of there in San Juan, by Round-7. And, that's a Foreman, who really didn't get going for several rounds.

I am not quite sure what you mean by "Ali didn’t need to move against Foreman". Are you suggesting Ali decided in advance that he was going to stand in front of Foreman and take horrendous punishment?

Are you also suggesting Ali wasn't a credible challenger to Foreman's Championship? He was cherry-picked, because he was debilitated?

And I'd like to know which fight Foreman and his team watched to think Ali's legs had gone.

These points are covered by counterpoints already made.

 

Firstly let’s not talk politics it’ll only get hairy I shouldn’t have started on that route forgive me.

We need to ask ourselves where has Foreman showed us he could beat Holmes that’s what I want you to answer. He couldn’t chase down Young and lost big “Clancy” Foreman or not I don’t think he could’ve done much differently Foreman isn’t going to get beat up and say to himself “”I’m losing every round to Jimmy but Clancy taught me good” especially in the circumstance he was in and with how much of an already developed fighter he was if there was something he could’ve done differently he would’ve IMO.

Against Ali I have to ask you even when he got him on the ropes what happened? I’d seen the routine rehearsed before he wasn’t making it up on the fly Ali didn’t see the guy we see- what he saw was someone who swung wide, kept his hands out in front of him and didn’t have a lot of rounds he was in a bad climate and the ring wasn’t made for dancing thus he brought it to the ropes it wasn’t George who forced it entirely in spite of what Muhammad will tell you think about why he’d tell you that.

He pot shorted Foreman all night and deflected just about everything on his gloves/arms ect It was an awesome display by Ali truly.

 

Well - no - you categorically stated that: "

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So I'd like you to explain how Holmes easily beats, by stoppage, a prime Foreman, without referring to the Foreman/Young bout.

I also refer you this initial post of mine, on this thread:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/larry-holmes-vs-george-foreman.626717/page-2#post-20247198

I think dismissing the difference between Zaire Foreman and San Juan Foreman is unreasonable, as is solely focusing on Clancy's influence, when there are other factors to consider about Foreman's performance against Young.
It is also not the case that Foreman was losing every round to Young.
The simplistic speculation of what was going on in the mind of Foreman, during the heat of competition, is unrealistic.

So, you are in the belief that it was a predefined strategy? OK. I don't think so.
Although, I do not doubt that Ali prepared for fighting off the ropes, that is not, in itself, an indication of strategic intent.

Foreman, almost exclusively, threw powershots - and was landing at a variably high rate (40 to 50 percent), in the first three rounds. Still maintaining heavy rates of landing into rounds 4 and 5. Crucial difference is that as Foreman's Stats dropped; Ali's got better.

This represents Ali taking considerable punishment and soaking it up, in order to turn the tide and outdo Foreman. And, not only do I not think Holmes could replicate Ali's strategy, with anywhere near the same level of effectiveness, I also don't think he could withstand the kind of physical assault Ali had to, in order to facilitate that turn of events.

And, if Holmes was in the same league as Ali, one might have in place a winning strategy for him to beat Foreman. But it's not that simple, and there's no way, in my opinion, that Holmes is able to maintain the mirage Ali did and, at the same time, keep his form and composure intact long enough to outdo Foreman.

Holmes' only chance is to stay out of Foreman's way and show an offense, in spurts. That is no easy task against a pre-Ali version of Foreman.

 

larry wins George moved bad

 

I think the argument is that if the ring was too soft for Ali to be mobile, Larry couldn't have done it either. I can't really disagree there. I think a prime Holmes is about as mobile as Rumble-era Ali.

Fix the ring issue, and I think either of them has a decent chance of dancing around Foreman and wearing him out. I give Ali a slightly higher chance of not getting caught, but Holmes a slightly higher chance of injuring George (opening a cut or shutting an eye via jabs) and making the best of the injury.

 

1981 Holmes tkos 1973 Foreman

 

An easy one my initial point pardon for the confusion- was that the way he held his hands out was susceptible to Holmes offence I’ll get back to this debate soon.

 

It is also unreasonable to believe that Foreman was an utterly helpless born again fighter when he didn't look much different then ever, he just looked bad because of Young which you seem to be entirely resting on Clancy. Again he was a fully developed fighter a young head strong guy If he could've done differently he would have IMO let's stop debating his mentality ect and look at what we have he didn't change how he tried to cut the ring he had the same game plan as far as I can see on film, I didn't see Young trapped along the ropes every round taking shots he cruised around Foreman at the very least Holmes is a much, much more superior fighter then Young and displayed enough know how to not be blocked off yes?

I think so that the "Rope a dope" was at the very least premediated as a plan B in some capacity, I truly do given the speculation of the Peralta fight, How Ali responded during the fight after the first round or so, the ring being squishy, he was complaining how it was sapping his legs, Ali saw Foreman as a big guy who was relatively untested for the deep end, he knew Foreman was just gonna come out wining those long telegraphed shots he didn't have a plan B and with the climate and his experience on the ropes it isn't a hard thing to decide just to wait him out and pot shot him whenever he brings his hand behind his ear but that's just my two cents.

Holmes wouldn't need to sit on the ropes or even soak up much of anything, I see Larry moving all night like usual darting in and beating Foreman to the punch every time he opens up real wide the way he used to. He wasn't quick enough to jab with Holmes he wouldn't try it, with the way he held his hands out I think Larry would catch him with some chunky rights and slow him down early and from there he'd be trapped in a rhythm he hasn't got the footwork to catch Holmes for long, the power to flash KO Holmes if he get's lazy, a second plan or the speed to mount an offence and as every round clocks over George will become more venerable and Larry will keep laying it on him till he guns him down.

 

I see so it is a outta shape larry he loses here then he was never as tough as ali

 

It would be unreasonable to believe this. But no one is arguing this case.

But Foreman clearly did look different.
Plenty of commentators noted his not going after Young early, as being a mistake.

No. Young made everyone look bad and I have stated as much, in this very discussion.

Clancy’s attempts at trying to pace Foreman weren’t working and led to a strategic catastrophe in San Juan (and it nearly let Lyle in with a shot of toppling Foreman too, one could add). This was picked up in the press, at the time and Clancy’s fight plan was looked at, as an issue. Clancy defended his position by diplomatically describing Foreman as being difficult to train and Foreman himself had openly admitted he was no longer into his training.

All of that said, I have also mentioned Foreman’s attitude had changed, that he was under-prepared and had not acclimatised to yet another crucible. So, one does not need to rely solely on the influence of Clancy here, albeit him being a key factor.

The point is, you are basing a predicted easy win for Holmes, against Foreman, on what was Foreman’s worst ever outing; a performance for which almost everyone at the time was providing, almost universally, the same reasoning.

It’s a theory, but it is not reflected in anything of what was said at the time. Almost every commentator I have read on the topic has relayed that Ali realized early on, that he was not going to be able to stay out of the way of Foreman for long and had to improvise.

At the end of the day, it does not really matter whether Ali decided on this strategy before or during the fight itself. Ali employed the tactic and Foreman’s capabilities, including what Ali himself admitted were faster than expected hands from Foreman, had something to do with Ali taking this option.

And yet, Larry didn’t manage to move and avoid Norton all night; nor did he gun Norton down - and this is probably Holmes’ greatest performance. So, unless you want to lump Foreman into the same bracket as Shavers, Weaver, Snipes, Cooney etc, then your perspective lacks any sense of realism - because what you’re describing Holmes doing, never actually happened against a class of fighter even near to that of Foreman. Norton is perhaps the closest to that level and, to my mind (and the minds of a fair few others, I would speculate), Foreman was a far greater offensive threat than Norton ever was and much easier to shift.

The assumption that Holmes just does what was “usual”, as though he doesn’t get hit at all, is a mischaracterization of his fights. Your continued reference to “the way [Foreman] held his hands out” as the silver bullet for Holmes right hand seems a bit woolly. Especially, since it seems you are suggesting that nothing would be coming back from Foreman as Holmes just delivers right hands at will.

Dismissing Foreman’s ability to cut off the ring is pretty much the most obvious mistake in believing Holmes just dances around Foreman all night and I am not sure what you mean, when you state Foreman “hasn't got……the power to flash KO Holmes”.

With the above in mind, I think the ease, with which you predict a Holmes victory, appears a tad whimsical.