Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Well, as an aside, I'd take Baer over Williams in a firefight to the finish because of his chin and I think he could take Machen or Dejohn or Folley. And I would think that, regardless if those men fought Liston or not. Which brings me to my next point.

I think that the men on Liston's resume get overrated simply BECAUSE they were victims of Liston, not in spite of it. Valdez lost to Liston, but a younger Valdez also lost to Archie Moore. Imagine if Valdez for whatever reason, never fought Liston but only Moore. If I bring up Valdez as a young, top contender well over 200 pounds that Moore beat, it would go like this

Me: Moore beat Valdez who was well over 200 pounds

You: Whatever, Valdez was an unskilled oaf with 2 left feet.

But because he lost to Liston, now he's this big skilled man who could compete in any era. If you think that about Valdez, I have no problem. I do have a problem if the only reason you say that is because he lost to Liston.

 

Machen would've boxed circles around Baer it wouldn't even be close.

Their was nothing wrong with Williams chin'. He was only knocked out in his prime by an ATG puncher and took quite a bit of punishment before going down. Sometimes, he even got the better of the exchanges which he wouldn't be able to do if his chin was half as bad as depicted.

His defense was also worlds better than Baer's.

Now you're just flat out putting words in my mouth. I've never called Valdez an "unskilled oaf" (though I've probably said as much about Carnera). Valdez was a decent puncher with all right skills, but very inconsistent. He wasn't as good as Williams, but still a good fighter for his time or else he wouldn't have reached number 1.

Also Marciano notoriously never fought Valdez despite being his number one, so I wouldn't bring him up in a thread like this in an argument on behalf of Rocky. Fwiw, I think Rocky would've beaten Valdez, but he hits the canvas and takes some serious punishment imo.

 

And Archie was also the legit contender for marcianos HW title on account of beating legit heavyweight contenders aswell. The man Sonny beat to become champion however, he operated as a LH himself, was #1 contender to Archie Moore …and wound up winning the HW title out of beating the current LH champion. Imagine that? The only guy to win the HW title from the LH champ! In fact Floyd only beat one heavyweight contender, Tommy Jackson, on a split verdict. Whereas when Moore challenged for the HW title he had beaten Henry, Baker and Valdes. Three times as many Real heavyweights.

Marciano put Walcott one fight away from retirement.

I believe Lastarza, Savold, Mathews, Layne, Joe Louis all had ratings when Marciano beat them.

same for Rocky.

it matters less once you get into the period in history where it was possible for 200lb plus fighters to dominate the division. For the hundred years before this point the science had not allowed this to happen.

Heavier men were never a consideration until a much later period. It’s why nobody was looking for the next Primo Carnera.

It’s like talking about the advantages of bicycles against a horse before the motorcycle came along. They both have two wheels but it didn’t matter until the engine was installed.

This has been done to death. Initially valdes was supposed to rematch Charles in an elimination because at the time Valdes simply had too many recent losses to be taken seriously, but Valdes manager refused. Charles, who was prepared to fight Valdes again, flattened Satterfeild in Valdes place and got the shot instead. Remember much later even Satterfeild would put Valdes into perspective himself wiping the floor with Valdes. Even so, Valdes was due to be next after Charles but instead there was way more interest in a Charles rematch. So Marciano v Charles II took place instead. After this Valdes lost an eliminatior to Moore. But between these chances Valdes totally sucked against James J Parker in front of the New York crowd which really set him back. There was talk of a winter match in Cuba but tax reasons prevented it. In truth Valdes just blew his eliminatiors and was unable to overshadow even Don Cockell who had the second most valuable title in boxing and was more impressive in fights that he won on the west coast when there was pressure on a title fight happening in the West. Moore was the outstanding contender in any case. Not Valdes.

 

BTW, I do think 1991 Tyson would beat Liston. I don't think beating Williams or Whitehurst or Folley means anything against an early 90s Tyson. Anymore than I'd think Tyson beating them would have any bearing on him beating Liston

 

Why do you believe this to be the case?

I remember hearing a similar claim being made by others about 190 in the past on this forum. Heavies have been growing for a long time now. If 190 wasn't a safe mark from inflation, I'm wondering whether we can be any surer of 200.

 

I am a big fan of Rocky but to me it's not just the size of the opponents , it was their age, their mileage when he fought them plus what he brought to the table .. with all respect to Rocky, he was not as strong as Liston nor as good a boxer, nor as big a two handed hitter .. H2H, in my opinion, does not play out well for him despite the fact he was a great fighter and in my opinion a top ten heavyweight P4P.

 

…And we know why.

 

I count at least three or four reasons. It's the work of many hands.

 

Said the exact thing earlier and have kept trying to be respectful to Rocky in this thread but again his acolytes keep trying so hard, and I ask again why they are so compelled to do so? Why does preserving his mystique mean so much to them?

 

Valdes was number 2 when Liston beat him.to paraphrase yourself,don't pretend he was some long past it guy.

 

There is one possibility, but I am not going there.

 

Another fun fact. 36 year old Jersey Joe knocked out Harold Johnson who, like Sonny, would also only beat Machen on points.

 

Nope, Moore was not the outstanding contender until he beat the 2 years no 1 ranked Valdes . Al Weill faced with a choice between a prime 6'3" 211lbs guy and a 39 according to him, 41 according to his Mother. 5'11" 188lbs Moore chose wisely.

 

We all have our blind spots and loyalties. What you're describing is par for the course on this forum when any great heavyweight is discussed. Versus threads often end up like brawls between rival groups of soccer / football fans.

 

Moore became the legit no 1 contender when he beat 2 years number 1 contender Valdes and no amount of spin and BS from you will alter that fact!