Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

BTW, I do think 1991 Tyson would beat Liston. I don't think beating Williams or Whitehurst or Folley means anything against an early 90s Tyson. Anymore than I'd think Tyson beating them would have any bearing on him beating Liston

 

I am a big fan of Rocky but to me it's not just the size of the opponents , it was their age, their mileage when he fought them plus what he brought to the table .. with all respect to Rocky, he was not as strong as Liston nor as good a boxer, nor as big a two handed hitter .. H2H, in my opinion, does not play out well for him despite the fact he was a great fighter and in my opinion a top ten heavyweight P4P.

 

…And we know why.

 

Said the exact thing earlier and have kept trying to be respectful to Rocky in this thread but again his acolytes keep trying so hard, and I ask again why they are so compelled to do so? Why does preserving his mystique mean so much to them?

 

Valdes was number 2 when Liston beat him.to paraphrase yourself,don't pretend he was some long past it guy.

 

There is one possibility, but I am not going there.

 

Another fun fact. 36 year old Jersey Joe knocked out Harold Johnson who, like Sonny, would also only beat Machen on points.

 

Nope, Moore was not the outstanding contender until he beat the 2 years no 1 ranked Valdes . Al Weill faced with a choice between a prime 6'3" 211lbs guy and a 39 according to him, 41 according to his Mother. 5'11" 188lbs Moore chose wisely.

 

Moore became the legit no 1 contender when he beat 2 years number 1 contender Valdes and no amount of spin and BS from you will alter that fact!

 

Tyson's relevance to this thread escapes me entirely.

 

No he was not. By then Valdes was knocked out of the ratings by two guys who both lost their next fight. Here are August 1959 ratings.


Heavyweights
Ingemar Johansson, Champion

1. Floyd Patterson
2. Zora Folley
3. Sonny Liston
4. Eddie Machen
5. Henry Cooper
6. Roy Harris
7. Billy Hunter
8. Alex Miteff
9. Mike DeJohn
10. Cleveland Williams

 

Valdes was past his prime and had fallen out of the rankings by the time he faced Liston and Dejohn at 202 was considerably smaller than Tyson's opponents.

By and large the contenders Tyson beat were much bigger.

 

Archie, Like Harold Johnson, had already thoroughly beaten Valdes though. Valdes had to prove he was good enough to avenge the loss to Moore in an official eliminatior and just couldn’t do it. Archie simply beat him a second time.

Just as well valdes had not been forced to avenge the loss to Harold Johnson because he would have lost that as well.

very fortunate Valdes also avoided a rematch with Charles too because Charles flattened Bob Satterfield in his place who later whupped Nino in anyway.

So there always was three men better than Valdes aside from Rocky the entire time Nino was ranked. No wonder Nino was hard to sell to the public.

 

I know you never said that about Valdez and you will never because he was knocked out by Liston. Valdez and Williams are in the same company as Elmer Ray, Curtis Shepherd , Buddy Baer, What's his name Franklin. Big men who could punch. We can argue about the nuances of those men, but Williams, Dejohn, Valdez is in that company. If Williams had been stopped by Joe Louis in 1948 rather than Liston in 1958, Williams wouldn't have this reputation as some monster only Liston could slay and instead a more realistic view of him as a solid contender who was a big man that could crack. The guys Liston beat were no more special than the contenders Louis beat in the 30s and 40s, whether we're talking about their size or skill level.

I get it, Liston was a marquis win for Ali which therefore means that the guys Liston beat have to be rock stars, otherwise Liston isn't much of a win for Ali, anymore than say, Henry Cooper. That's how it seems to me. But the men that Liston beat, size or skill wise, would have fit perfectly into the 1940s heavyweight scene. And that's not a knock on Sonny Liston. But none of those guys were ATG's in the waiting that just had the bad luck to share an era with Liston.

And Marciano didn't fight Valdez. Why? I don't know, but he did beat the man who beat the man. Plus, I get this feeling that had Marciano fought and stopped Valdez, then the excuses of him being overrated and "not that skilled like today's big men" would be dragged up by Marciano detractors. Some reason why the win really doesn't count would be brought up. And had he fought Valdez rather than Moore in 55, he would be accused of ducking and cowering before Moore.

I don't knock Liston for not beating a 6'5 235 pound Riddick Bowe or even a 6'4 230 pound Frank Bruno. He couldn't. Why? They didn't exist, therefore, Liston couldn't beat them. He could only beat the best of who was around. And by the rules of the day, 176-199 pounders were REAL heavyweights. But not because they were Liston opponents. A 176-199 pound fighter was just as much a heavyweight if he fought Liston as he would be if he fought Marciano. Yes, Liston beat REAL heavyweights, not light heavies, but guys who were considered real heavyweights by everyone in the world at that time. The same is true for Rocky. He beat REAL heavyweights.

 

These are the best quotes on the whole thread:

wonderful points.